Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

I doubt there's a jury in the UK who would convict a parent of a hate crime if they reacted badly towards you once they spotted you in there amongst their young daughters, regardless of whatever assurances your woke friends may give you.

I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "reacted badly" but that is pretty sinister.

A hate crime doesn't exist independently of a crime: a crime must be committed in the first place. Assuming you are not planning actual GBH then what a jury might feel wouldn't come into it, as public order offences and minor assaults are heard by a DJ or by magistrates at the magistrates courts, and they absolutely would convict you.

It is never okay to assault someone unless it is self defence, and thinking someone looks a bit dodge isn't self defence.

[Did anybody else read it and think of Private Eye's "anyone come near my girls I swear I'll do time" contributor to their "From The Message Boards?]

This is one of the most bonkers arguments I've heard in here yet! You do realise jurors are bound to convict on the law not their own internal prejudices?! And a trans women in a female changing room is breaking no law

You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?

twitter.com/Dyketagnan/status/1011726121182740480

Excellent Twitter thread on this topic.

The numbers actually applying for a GRC haven't changed much year to year

But the numbers of trans people who want to be out certainly have increased

This is one of the most bonkers arguments I've heard in here yet! You do realise jurors are bound to convict on the law not their own internal prejudices?! And a trans women in a female changing room is breaking no law

You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?

That's quite some leap!

Personally I think the argument that "no jury will convict" is bonkers, as well as factually inaccurate. But saying this doesn't therefore mean that I think it's fine for people with the anatomy of an adult man to shower next to people with the anatomy of a young girl (except in specific circumstances such as a dad showering with his young daughter)

Keep going people. This discussion highlights the determination of the few to ensure that women MUST accept penises in spaces where women are vulnerable / undress.

Women of faiths not allowed to show their bodies in front of men, women with anxiety about their body image, women with mental health issues, young women, girls, shy women, abused women, women from refugee communities, overweight women and so on. No consideration, sensitivity, thought, empathy for their needs and wishes - nothing.

All those women targeted over decades to get involved in swimming and other activities, to be more included in society and to improve their health through swimming and sport - thrown under a bus. All in order to meet the demands of the self centred and insensitive.

I’ve not seen a penis in the changing rooms because the time I saw a man in the ladies changing room, I left immediately and haven’t gone back. So, yeah, no penises were seen.

I also didn’t get my workout, but hey ho, what do I matter?

Hi Bowlofbabelfish having been assaulted in a men's toilet for looking a bit like a poof then I can answer that one.

We as women are told that if a man in a female toilet assaults or exposes themselves, then just call the police and it will be dealt with. So why can't you just call the police if you feel unsafe in the gents?

I mean, it almost looks like women's and girl's don't matter when the disparity between your safety and the safety of women and girls is put side by side don't you think?

"I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "reacted badly" but that is pretty sinister."
Well, to anyone who actually knows any women with children, 'reacted badly' in a similar situation (like when a woman in a cubicle finds some bloke peering under the door or whatever), would be things like shouting 'get the fuck out of here, this is the ladies' Although when my missus confuses people by going into the ladies, she mostly gets a very significant funny look, and someone saying 'the gents is over there' or something similar.

Although I suspect that in many cases 'reacting badly' would be going out and complaining at the main desk. I understand why some people might think that women not just rolling over and accepting things is 'sinister'...............

Although let's face it, a far more likely scenario is a small child saying in their wonderfully loud voice 'Mummy, why is there a man in the changing room?....... But it's a man Mummy.........'

But the numbers of trans people who want to be out certainly have increased.

Yes, what I meant was that the 'need' to use the female toilets as evidence to gain GRC hasn't really increased so we shouldn't be seeing lots more legal males in the female toilets if that is the main reason for doing so.

We are going to go around in circles with this one I'm afraid as because you say we are men we should not be let. In to woman's toilets but the lads that thought it was fun to hit someone because they are diffent to them are not the same as me or many other trans woman so you are not allowing men into that space. Now I know you are going to disagree with that and say but these trans woman beat someone up. But then I can say by took Cheryl Cole hit someone in a toilet maybe we should ban celebrities from woman's toilets. I like. To beleive that most. People in the world do not want to commit crimes but unfortunately people do. What we don't do is go round profiling people based on those characteristics we tend to get in trouble when we do

We as women are told that if a man in a female toilet assaults or exposes themselves, then just call the police and it will be dealt with. So why can't you just call the police if you feel unsafe in the gents?

Well exactly. If it’s a good enough solution for women...

I’m still struggling to understand why two posters don’t want to be in the gents because men have harmed them/make them feel unsafe and yet are proposing a solution where ALL men would be allowed in the women’s. Thereby making all women, and transwomen, exposed to the same behaviour they want to get away from.

Can one or both of you shed some light on this?

why don’t you feel safe in the men’s?
why can’t you just call the police?
how would opening women’s spaces to men help this?

These are fundamental questions.

Well. This thread has been enlightening. Or perhaps it would be better to say endarkening.

"You think it's ok then for people with penis's to be showering next to naked little girls?"

Let's insert any other charatistic into this sentence and see how it looks. I think it's not. OK for anyone with an atteaction to little. Girls to be near. Little girls that is a big difference. Or are we saying that anyone with an attraction to woman should not be around little girls?

but the lads that thought it was fun to hit someone because they are diffent to them are not the same as me or many other trans woman so you are not allowing men into that space.

You are less different to those lads that hit you than you are to women - which is pretty much the crux of the problem.

It is clear that trans people's safety is most important here and the safety of women and girls is completely not trans people's problem.

Thank you for not pretending that you are in any way concerned with the safety of women and girls.

As this is a thread about diva magazine I though we might also like to. Talk about maybe diva magazine. The thing I find amusing about diva is the number of times clare balding as appeared in it over the years and other famous lesbians and that they have to. Find something else. To ask them about after the 3-4th interview lol

Yes hilare.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts the safety of all. People is everyone's problem no one as the right to commit an offence against someone full. Stop when people are not committing an offence and have no intention of doing so that is a different matter

Yes we can certainly go back to talking about DIVA but first I’d like an answer to my questions if at all possible;

why don’t you feel safe in the mens
if women can just call the police who will instantly arrive and remove any man being an issue why can’t you do that too?
why, if you feel unsafe in the men’s, is the answer to allow all men into the ladies?

These are fairly important questions. As we are exhorted to just call the police, and told that men in women’s spaces are no problem. And yet here we have posters telling us the exact opposite is why they want to use the women’s ...

Right you promise we can go back to talking about diva so I will answer your questions you might not agree. With my reply are we all OK with that.

why don’t you feel safe in the mens
Because I'm not a man I'm a trans woman and I'm often seen as every other woman and therefore at risk of assault and sexual assault in those spaces

if women can just call the police who will instantly arrive and remove any man being an issue why can’t you do that too?
Having called the police and waited the 20 to 30 minutes it took to respond what would you like anyone to do. Wait there and get. Assaulted more.

why, if you feel unsafe in the men’s, is the answer to allow all men into the ladies?
Again this is an assumption that all men will. Want to id as woman to access toilets some men no doubt will do that just as they will die in partition. Walls to. Spy on woman or dress. Up. As janitors and yes I do think that this is something we're we need discussion but you are not wanting that you. Are wanting to ban trans woman from spaces while ironically including trans men in them that look like. Men so why can a man not just identify as a trans man and access woman's spaces equally

I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "reacted badly" but that is pretty sinister.

I have reported it.

But there's a fundamental issue here that all these posts saying it isn't safe for a trans woman to be in female spaces risk inciting violence against trans women who do enter things like changing rooms. I think we have just seen how on the back of such horrid posts about trans women being a safety risk, someone posts something sinister. What worries me is that rather than a sister post, it could so easily turn into aggression and violence against trans women.

Oh for goodness sake, what an over reaction. By 'reacted badly', I meant accusing the person of voyeurism or flashing, not suggesting that mothers or grannies in the changing rooms would beat the person up. We're talking female behaviour here, not male violence. It'd be an instinctive reaction in most cases - our innate desire to protect little children runs deep. But in this day and age, I can easily see the mother or grannie being hailed before the court accused of a hate crime. And I don't believe a jury would convict.

I’ve not seen a penis in the changing rooms because the time I saw a man in the ladies changing room, I left immediately and haven’t gone back. So, yeah, no penises were seen.

I also didn’t get my workout, but hey ho, what do I matter?

This is absolutely key. Any male person who uses a women's facility has to accept that their use of the facility will mean that they have prevented some women from using that women's facility. Justify it however you like, but a first step would be accepting that this happens and taking full responsibility for it.

Bespins: women and girls are not your human shield. Stop appropriating us in that way. Resolve the problem without using us as human shields.

Do police respond more quickly when women report an assault in a toilet than when trans people report an assault in a toilet? Is it 5 minutes for women but 30 minutes for trans people?

Asking for a friend.

Oh for goodness sake, what an over reaction.

No. You said no jury would convict people for what they did. That means you envisaged them taking some sort of criminal action against the trans woman, and indeed portrayed that criminal act as something most people would see as reasonable.