Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

Hey @TimeLady, If I am honest I was never in a position before hormones where I would have used the women's changing facilities. I started hormones about 3.5 months before I socially transitioned so I was still very much presenting as a man (though more androgynous). So of course I would not have used the ladies changing rooms.

With regards to what has changed - well yes.. things are different. For one thing I have breasts, feminine figure and face. So it is inappropriate for me to use the mens facilities (nor would I feel safe due to the attention I would attract). And I do not feel wholly comfortable divulging this next piece of information on a forum where a few people know me in real life; but then there is the fact that the hormones have left me dysfunctional down there. So no.. I do not pose the same threat as a male bodied person I do not think. I only bring it up in the interest of replying to your message fully. I apologise if it was too much? Not that I ever was but contrary to certain poster's opinion of my response to spontaneous of course I can see that certain people class me as a threat.

Not to mention that in order to fulfill my requirements to attain my GRC in about a year and a third I am expected to have used female facilities as a show of commitment to transition.

I have said in other threads regarding this topic that I would use a cubicle within the facilities. There would be no swinging around of anything (not you that brought this up I know) as certain users seem to imagine.

The question that was asked was should 'I' be around children. I answered as such. I basically raised my sister who is 12 years younger than me, so it is probably this that is framing most of my opinion regarding this given that I have had such a parental role with her.

Thank you for your comment about you thinking I am a genuine poster, It actually means a lot that there are GC (I am assuming you are, apologies if not) posters here that do think this. I don't think I am a bad person, I might have an opinion that is unpopular but who doesn't?
--

Start of general message not at particular posters:

As for it being bizarre for a trans woman to refer to a potential girlfriend as a girl? I find it bizarre that this is being picked at. I am 28.. It is nothing to do with infantising (gross) a potential partner it is simply a case of the language that is appropriate for the situation..

Also FYI, I brought the topic and various opinions within this thread up with the girl I dated last night and when I said to her that posters had said she was not a lesbian/gay because she was attracted and interested in me her response was 'that is bullshit, you are a girl to me, that is how I see you and it is all I have ever known you as'. But you know.. invalidate her orientation, that is fine.

"expected to have used female facilities as a show of commitment to transition"

OT, but I always wondered - as a wheelchair user - how this works for someone who has to use disabled facilities. Especially if they have a unisex name (as I do as well) so no need to change that.

NatLuc

Can you show me where it says you have to use the facilities as part of the process? It's the second time I've heard it, and I would have thought it was quite a pivotal point.

With regards to what has changed - well yes.. things are different. For one thing I have breasts, feminine figure and face. So it is inappropriate for me to use the mens facilities (nor would I feel safe due to the attention I would attract). And I do not feel wholly comfortable divulging this next piece of information on a forum where a few people know me in real life; but then there is the fact that the hormones have left me dysfunctional down there. So no.. I do not pose the same threat as a male

Again, the argument that you don't feel safe in the men's, so women need to be made unsafe, holds no water. It's an illogical, selfish argument.

Because in terms of threat, to women and girls, you pose exactly the same perceived threat as any other biological male.

Your knowledge of your motives doesn't mean anything.

I, quite genuinely, find the lack of understanding about women's lived experience almost the most depressing part of this whole thing.

It's so frustrating.

nor would I feel safe due to the attention I would attract

Well, I don't feel safe for me or my daughter having someone with a male body in the changing rooms with us. Why do your wishes and feelings outweigh ours?

it is inappropriate for me to use the mens facilities (nor would I feel safe..)

It's inappropriate to use the women's
It makes women and girls feel unsafe
Try to care or pretend to care at least

I do think that transwomen in the process of getting their GRC have a difficult time regarding which facilities to use. Perhaps "the system" has been a bit lazy in using toilets and changing rooms as a proxy for "living as a woman", without thinking through the consequences for anyone. And, of course, when the numbers of men wanting to transition were much lower, the impact on women's spaces was much lower

I agree @OlennasWimple

And noted that Nat uses a private cubicle which sounds reasonable enough.

So NatLuc - why don't you seem to be concerned that your use of the ladies loo makes it inaccessible for many actual women and girls? Why do your requirements trump theirs? Where are they supposed to go?

noted that Nat uses a private cubicle which sounds reasonable enough.

Private cubicles are generally contained within larger communal changing areas. It's not just that I don't want to have to look at penises and scrotums while I'm getting changed. I don't want people with penises and scrotums within the female changing rooms while my daughter or I are getting changed there.

It is such a deeply male attitude to talk about being 'entitled' to access those spaces, as you have repeatedly on this thread daim . Whatever your actual sex, gender, sexuality, whatever, it is an incredibly arrogant and masculine way to treat people. There is a horrible triumphalism and a real 'fuck you' tone to your posts (not there in NatLuc 's - they just seem completely oblivious to the impact of their actions on women and girls).

Quick genuine question how many penis's have you seen in a female changing room? I'm not dismissing anyone who as genuinely had to face this or had something happen to them in these spaces from men, but more in the I was in a changing room and there was this trans woman in there getting changed and I saw a penis. It is often said but no one I have read as actually said it happened to them or that they have been in a changing room with a trans woman even. I would be interested in. Peoples experience of this in the. Real. World.

Nat, you have told us you have a penis. Your girlfriend is therefore, by definition, not a lesbian. However sweet and reassuring her speech may be in the context of your private times, they don't change the meaning of words.

You say you don't feel safe in the men's but fail to understand that if males - regardless of identity - are accessing women only spaces you make them single sex no more and open the door to the men you fear. Even if every MtF were a saint, by intruding into women only spaces they facilitate sexual predators and remove the layer of protection such spaces traditionally offer to women and girls.

it is inappropriate for me to use the mens facilities (nor would I feel safe..)

Right, this is the crux of it. why do you not feel safe?

Because...?

Bespin it's never happened to me and I live in Brighton. Saying that the swimming pool changing rooms are all unisex with private cubicles so me and DD have probably changed in the near vicinity of a penis and scrotum many times with only a thin wall separating us. Nothing terrible happened.

This seems a pretty standard setup for all the swimming pools I've visited recently - see attached from a recent trip to Center Parcs.

I think a rule of being separated from a penis and scrotum by a wall / private cubicle is fair enough and something trans people should abide by, as Nat says she does.

That would be a reasonable argument rather than saying trans women shouldn't be changing anywhere in the vicinity of women and children.

"I doubt there's a jury in the UK who would convict a parent of a hate crime if they reacted badly towards you once they spotted you in there amongst their young daughters, regardless of whatever assurances your woke friends may give you."

You are seriously saying that someone in a place who is not committing any crime and going about there lawful business as the right to be attacked and that no jury in the UK would find the person guilty of assaulting them? Do you think we live in the deep south of America in the 1950s or. Something.

Why do you not feel safe in the men’s natluc?

Hi Bowlofbabelfish having been assaulted in a men's toilet for looking a bit like a poof then I can answer that one.

But what specifically makes you unsafe in the men’s?

Men being there?

Yes?

So how do women feel safe in the women’s if men can come in?

You’re saying that you face Male violence in the men’s toilets. And that the solution to that is to have men in the women’s toilets?

And you see absolutely no logical disconnect there at all?

My DH has been assaulted in the men's toilet because he accidentally spilled someone's pint who then took umbrage to DH, followed him in when he went on his own to the toilet and tried to beat him up. (DH's friends saw what was happening and followed quickly after and intervened, thankfully)

He has never suggested that he should use the women's toilets in order to keep safe

Can I just point out here Natluc that women and girls are not on this earth to act as human shields to trans people who say they are not the sex their physiology would suggest.

I doubt there's a jury in the UK who would convict a parent of a hate crime if they reacted badly towards you once they spotted you in there amongst their young daughters, regardless of whatever assurances your woke friends may give you.

This is one of the most bonkers arguments I've heard in here yet! You do realise jurors are bound to convict on the law not their own internal prejudices?! And a trans women in a female changing room is breaking no law.

Can you please explain to me how allowing men, who you are both clearly saying committ violent acts, into women’s spaces is not a problem?

So a man beat you up for the way you looked? Well that’s dreadful and you have my sympathy. An awful lot of us have been on the end of male violence. Men are, as a class, rather a threat I’m afraid.

What I can’t get my head around logically is then to argue that the solution to you feeling unsafe in such a situation is to create a situation that exposes ALL women and girls AND transwomen to those men.

Help me here - how will allowing those men, who have harmed you bespin and who make you feel unsafe natluc into women’s spaces help? Because I can’t see it.

And, of course, when the numbers of men wanting to transition were much lower, the impact on women's spaces was much lower.

The numbers actually applying for a GRC haven't changed much year to year: www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2017-10-06/105995/

TimeLady, yesterday on another thread, Spontaneousgiventime posted that she'd asked the police what the position was if a little girl was being exposed to adult male genitals in an intimate setting. The response was that safeguarding always took priority. The penis owner would be removed.

Attacking people is wrong. Call the police instead.

My DB takes the robust view that any male bodied person in the women's showers is automatically suspect. I think most people would agree - particularly parents.

natluc can I ask why you feel unsafe in the men’s please?