Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

[EmpressOfSpartacus]

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-put-curbs-on-trans-rights-7zx2cbh2j?shareToken=71ea2e364a4682a6395af2056695238d

I am interested in how a male bodied person having a certificate makes you happy to have them in a space for people with female sexed bodies, but not a male bodied person without a certificate.

Which is why a GRC should not bring about that entitlement. A piece of paper confirming someone has gender dysphoria means nothing. It is still a male body. On a social level, in the workplace, on ID cards whatever, I have no issue with someone having a female gender identity and this having legal recognition. However, certain spaces need segregation on the basis of SEX- ie the EA exemptions need to be made mandatory and they need clarification as to specifically which services should be female only.

MsBeaujangles because with a GRC they are legally a woman. That's my personal view, I totally get why someone else might not be comfortable with it,

I am completely uncomfortable with this lie. @mnhq deleted me for saying so, because this perspective is 'uncivil' and 'uncivil' is a lovely blunt instruments that one can be confusingly bumped over the head with.
But I am sure people who feel 'comfortable' will be free to express their view until their hearts are content. Lucky you.

This doesn’t have to be a battle

We are beginning to have mainstream acceptance that gender reassignment protections should not be prioritised over sex protections. There must be a balance and that will not be the case where there is an assumption that inclusion is the default.

I believe that we can find an amicable solution.

There do need to be amendments made to the EHRC guidance this would help to make the exemptions workable. We also need a mechanism to enable women to challenge institutions which do not implement the exemptions; possibly a tribunal system to reduce the difficulties and expense of having to bring claims via the court system.

This needs to be done whether or not self id comes in

To those saying they would be perfectly happy if trans men used women's spaces, I'm not sure that bears scrutiny. Trans men often pass more readily than trans women. Women are highly alert to men in women's spaces. Trans men are treated with hostility in women's spaces from fairly early in transition, and women don't hold back if they read someone as male in the ladies loos.

Yes, I actually agree with this. Especially the post about a trans man with penoplasty. I don't think being trans makes you the desired sex, but if you go through a physical transition, it does make you something different to your birth sex. This is why I think specific trans spaces are needed. A trans man with a beard, no breasts, on a high dose of testosterone and with a surgically constructed penis would conceivably cause discomfort to women sharing the same space. Nor from that person's point of view is it in their interests to share space with female bodies because it would breach their dignity. Ditto for trans women. They are not biologically female, but if they have undergone physical transition, it's not really appropriate to ask them to share with natal men either. Everyone has always worked from the assumption that there can only be provision for 2 genders, but once we get rid of that assumption, it is possible to meet the needs of natal men, natal women and trans people.

I would be OK with a transman being on my ward if I knew it was a same sex ward and the only people admitted to it has female sexed bodies.
I doubt very much that a transman would want to be on a woman’s ward, just as a transwoman may not want to be on a men’s one.

Yes, yes to the poster highlighting the amount of hours you spend with other patients compared to visitors and staff.

Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?

Many of them face discrimination from people who say they don't want to be nursed by a trans nurse,

Are you sure it's because they are trans and not because of their sex?

The numbers of trans men who have phalloplasty is minute due to the technical difficulties associated with the surgery. That means that the vast majority of trans men are as they were born so I would have no trouble with them in my space.

People not wanting to be treated by black HCP was/is racist.

Women not wanting to be treated by someone with a penis is not comparable, given the issues in the world with male violence.

Pratchet
The only objection I would have is this. If someone like Buck Angel, who passes completely, were to use women's toilets, the intention would only be to cause mischief. Plus, they (in general, not Buck) have a higher propensity, according to the Swedish study, of committing violent crime.
Oh right. So the only reason a trans man would have for using the ladies loo would be to cause mischief. And the only reason (according to you ) that a trans woman would have for using the ladies loo would be to commit some sort of crime. And you don't want cis-men in there, either. So even though there is no legislation in place at the moment that forbids any of those people from using a ladies loo, you want the law rewritten to exclude transwomen — the one group that is most vulnerable if they venture into the gents.

Please explain to me how this can be anything other than hatred?

Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?

I am not sure. The numbers are so very small surely. However, it's not just about safety, it's also about privacy and dignity. I wouldn't 100% be against it, but I can see how some women might not be comfortable with someone who appeared male being in their space, even if they were reassured that said person was born female. I guess the difference also is that nearly all trans men will undergo significant physical transition whereas many trans women will do relatively little, yet still claim to be women. I definitely haven't seen any trans men who present as typically female, yet insist they are male.

But I think it also needs to be viewed from their perspective and I can understand how a transitioned trans man would not want to share facilities with women.

the one group that is most vulnerable if they venture into the gents.

Old men, disabled men, weak men are vulnerable too.

Don't worry we all have to use the effing men's loos, as TRAs made everything unisex.

Kettlepotblackagain
Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?
Yes. It's in the famous Swedish study that you all love to misquote for "evidence" that all trans people are probably rapists (in spite of the fact that a lot of us couldn't be even if we wanted to be and tried incredibly hard to be, because we don't have penises.)

Is there evidence to show that trans men exhibit more aggressive behaviours towards females once they have transitioned?

It's worth remembering when cross sex hormones are taken the person goes into the opposite puberty. Therefore trans men will take years to have the same levels and possibly never the same physique and strength.

So even though there is no legislation in place at the moment that forbids any of those people from using a ladies loo, you want the law rewritten to exclude transwomen—the one group that is most vulnerable if they venture into the gents

Actually, Damn, I believe that a group even more vulnerable if they went into the gent's is natal women. You know, given the high murder and rape rate. Which is why they have protected spaces, because they would not be safe in the gent's.

Trans people should also be given protected spaces so that trans women do not have to use male toilets. However, it does not automatically follow that they should go into women's protected spaces, because those are for women. They need their own protected spaces.

Damn I would assume though as a trans man (I took that from your last post but apologies if I am wrong) that you yourself do not want to use women's segregated spaces. Out of interest, do you always feel safe in male spaces or would you welcome an increased number of third/unisex spaces?

On the subject of cross sex hormones. I read a little while ago about a Doctor who prescribes these drugs and manages those who take them. He said it was extremely common to see the patient regress to their puberty stage and become stroppy, unreasonable, rude, tendency to have strong mood swings, etc. All the things a pubescent child presents. I wish I could remember where I read it, it was fascinating.

PeakPants
Damn I would assume though as a trans man (I took that from your last post but apologies if I am wrong) that you yourself do not want to use women's segregated spaces. Out of interest, do you always feel safe in male spaces or would you welcome an increased number of third/unisex spaces?
I'm afraid you're wrong! I'm a transwoman — post-op and with an (old-style) GRC. I do not want to use male-segregated spaces. Genuinely unisex spaces are fine. I don't like using disabled loos etc., because I am not disabled. And I would absolutely not use a space labelled "trans"! There is so much trans hatred being deliberately stoked up that being seen going in or out of a "trans" space would be tantamount to wearing a big sign round my neck saying "Attack me".

But I have only once had an issue using ladies loos or changing rooms — and that once was when i was working at an American military establishment.

In everyday life it simply isn't an issue. Not for me or for anyone else using the facilities for the same purpose.

On the subject of cross sex hormones. I read a little while ago about a Doctor who prescribes these drugs and manages those who take them. He said it was extremely common to see the patient regress to their puberty stage and become stroppy, unreasonable, rude, tendency to have strong mood swings, etc. All the things a pubescent child presents. I wish I could remember where I read it, it was fascinating.

That sounds really interesting. If you do remember, I'd like to have a read...

how is it a lie to say that with a GRC they are legally a woman?

I wasn't taking a pop at you. The GRC itself is a legal lie. People such as yourself who feel completely tickety-boo with that are allowed freedom of speech on MN FWR, whereas people such as myself, who are uncomfortable with it and seek for the legal ambiguity to favour the objective reality that sex change is impossible, are given the @MNHQ kosh for being uncivil and not of the nice, uncontroversial, sanctioned and approved by Emma's mates perspective.

It's worth remembering when cross sex hormones are taken the person goes into the opposite puberty. Therefore trans men will take years to have the same levels and possibly never the same physique and strength.

Yes that's what I thought.

They would also have not been socialised with male privilege and patriarchal power, therefore Id be more likely to feel they are a threat. However, I'm always willing to change my views if scientific evidence shows me I am wrong.

That sounds really interesting. If you do remember, I'd like to have a read...

I'll try to find it. I think it was on a forum for people who present opposite to their birth sex. They were discussing fat distribution and how if you are of the sex that has no bum or hips then hormones don't help. Someone posted a link and the Doctor was quoted in that.

Sorry Damn, I got that wrong. I think with toilets and changing rooms, if there was a genuine unisex space that many natal women/men would also use it, as well as non-binary people (some of whom say they don't use the toilet at all when out because there is only M and F). Personally, I prefer individual self-contained toilets so if it was a choice between that and stalls in the ladies, I would choose the unisex. I think that this would help to break down some of the stigma and I wouldn't envisage the third space just being the 'trans toilet'. But I think that would strike some balance and allow privacy and dignity both for trans people and for natal women.