Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

[EmpressOfSpartacus]

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-put-curbs-on-trans-rights-7zx2cbh2j?shareToken=71ea2e364a4682a6395af2056695238d

They would also have not been socialised with male privilege and patriarchal power, therefore Id be more likely to feel they are a threat. However, I'm always willing to change my views if scientific evidence shows me I am wrong.

Well, yes. Your formative years of socialisation are vital in shaping the person you become. Science can't row that back and change it so how you were brought up from birth is how you behave as an adult.

I'd be less likely to feel they are a threat that should say!!!

Puberty is very much part of the medical hormonal transition experience according to most verifiable accounts.

Unfortunately people often behave like complete asses when in puberty, so trans people in that stage of transition often behave like total ass hats too. It wears off once the puberty of the new gender is done. Unless they were total assholes before transition too, in which case they are stuck with it.

It's interesting to me to see posters stating they would be fine with a trans man in a female space, especially if they were told the person was born female.

That's not been my experience of it at all, though if I'd taken a guess before actually being in that position lots of times I would have thought I'd be just fine with it.

It turns out the psychological response is way more complex than that, and that once a person starts reading as male (I mean the small perceptions that our brains use to establish gender) I'm really not comfortable with them being somewhere I would ordinarily only share with females. And this includes super close people whom I've known for years and years as their original gender. You'd think the brain would be able to override what it sees and hears with what it knows, but that's not the case here.

And I think there's a further problem with the argument I often see here that trans men would be welcomed in women's spaces and that therefore it's not anti trans to exclude trans women from them.

Are you going to take their word for it? Or ask to check their pants? Because trans men are often really really hard to tell apart from youngish natal blokes. And I get that you might think at this point that you'd be fine with it, but bear in mind that your brain will be busy telling you there's a bloke there, because the person in front of you will likely look and sound very much like a young bloke, and will be dressed as and behaving as a male.

So given that males are hellbent on getting into women's spaces (I'm paraphrasing the GC prevailing wind here) surely if trans men were welcomed into women's spaces then it would be a shitload easier to just say you're a trans man to get access, than to present as a trans woman.

If scientific evidence demonstrates that, for example, trans men are likely to exhibit predatory male behaviours after transition, become abusive, assault, rape etc then I would not be comfortable sharing spaces with them. However, if they are female bodied and socialised as a female, and there was no third space for trans people (which I think there should be, and that should be the focus of the trans campaign) then I would not have the same objections.

But you aren't trying to force them into the gents, are you? It's only transwomen that you are trying to force into a position of extreme danger. (and, incidentally, I think you'll find that trans-women are actually at higher risk of rape and other physical violence than cis-women)

I don't think this is entirely fair. It's not just about safety, it is about privacy and dignity. 9 times out of 10, you as a trans woman would not be attacked in the gents, but there are other reasons why it is not appropriate for you to use it. Your body looks different, you would attract unwanted attention etc. Same if I went into the gents- I would probably not get attacked (although there is a risk), but it would cause me discomfort. I have many male friends, but I don't think it's appropriate to share certain spaces- due to dignity, not risk of attack.

For trans women like yourself, there is a large variation between physical presentation. For instance, someone like yourself has had surgery, but many others will not have done so. Someone at the beginning of their transition will still present in a way that corresponds with birth sex. Of course, there is a potential risk that there COULD be attacks (but I certainly don't think trans people are excessively prone to violence), but it is more about the body that is quite obviously not biologically female and may cause bio-women to feel uncomfortable. Not because they hate trans people, in the same way a lack of comfort even around men they know well does not mean they hate men.

I think both sides need to show empathy. Yes, some people are transphobic, but not all those arguing for sex segregation are doing so because they hate trans people. That is why I am arguing for third spaces- I wouldn't expect a trans woman (at any stage of transition) to use male facilities. But I think that by just having two types of facilities, both trans people AND women are being let down.

One of the biggest give-a-ways of a person who presents opposite their birth sex is voice. While a trans man's voice does lower it will still have that tell tale sign they cannot change. Both sex's have major issues with voice and it is the biggest hurdle.

So that transphobes can lie in wait for us?

To be fair, if they wanted to, they would lie in wait for you as you exited the ladies' too. If lots of people of either sex use the unisex loos, I don't think this puts trans people at an elevated risk.

For heaven's sake ! How many times does it have to be said? A ladies loo is not a "women's protected space"?

You are right. We do keep making it about toilets. I think I am thinking more about female-specific services and naked changing spaces. Do you have any view on that- is there in your view ever a situation where it is legitimate to segregate based on biology rather than gender identity?

Kettlepotblackagain I recommend reading their own words. It is quite fascinating and not being that way inclined myself an eye opener. Try a forum, American ones are the most open and revealing.

PeakPants
Sorry Damn,...

Sorry, Peak... I'm afraid I responded to your previous post before I saw the clarification.
I think you and I may be astonishingly close to agreement on this —- but I'm afraid that doesn't count for anything much.

I think both sides need to show empathy. Yes, some people are transphobic, but not all those arguing for sex segregation are doing so because they hate trans people. That is why I am arguing for third spaces- I wouldn't expect a trans woman (at any stage of transition) to use male facilities. But I think that by just having two types of facilities, both trans people AND women are being let down.

Segregation of trans people into a third space is a total non-starter. The optics are appalling. It would face an immediate human rights challenge - and lose.

Kettlepotblackagain I recommend reading their own words. It is quite fascinating and not being that way inclined myself an eye opener. Try a forum, American ones are the most open and revealing.

Great, I will thanks.

I think they are an important part of this debate and it seems their voice is very quiet.

Try this one. You need a very open mind as there is no topic off limits.

Kettle, Sponty - I love you.

I love you too Lang. That was a bit random, but always welcome.

Segregation of trans people into a third space is a total non-starter. The optics are appalling. It would face an immediate human rights challenge- and lose.

What is your actual problem? I doubt you know any trans or non-binary people yourself. It's not 'segregating' trans people, it's providing fucking services for them. What about non-binary people? There was someone on Genderquake who said they didn't want to ever use the loo in public unless it was unisex. I guess according to you, they would just be chucked under a bus, right?
You know nothing about human rights law whereas many of us here do. You keep making stupid and insulting comparisons to brutal regimes when people are trying to think of a way forward that benefits both trans people and women. This is not a 'non-starter', nor is it in breach of human rights law, you doink, because the EA already allows for sex-specific services. Read a book or something.

Also with the loving for Lang, kettle and sponty

I'm afraid I responded to your previous post before I saw the clarification.
I think you and I may be astonishingly close to agreement on this —- but I'm afraid that doesn't count for anything much

OK, well sounds kind of promising. I do think a solution that benefits both sides is possible, but does require movement from both parties.

Sorry bit late to this thread nothing much to add just total shock that ministers would commit to. Something that is already In place and is not planned to be changed. I'm. Shocked

Love you too Pratchet and I LOVE reading your posts.

PeakPants
To be fair, if they wanted to, they would lie in wait for you as you exited the ladies' too.
Well they could ... but we wouldn't be labelling ourselves! And (in spite of what some people like to pretend, most of us are not half as noticeable as they like to think we are!) You only notice the ones that are noticeable! And of the people that you think "Oh that one's trans"... how do you know you're right?

I think I am thinking more about female-specific services and naked changing spaces. Do you have any view on that- is there in your view ever a situation where it is legitimate to segregate based on biology rather than gender identity?

I don't have a penis. I have a vagina. Am I OK?

Pre-op, there is no way I would have put myself in the position of having to undress in front of other people — for my sake or theirs! I think most trans people are the same.

"What is your actual problem? I doubt you know any trans or non-binary people yourself. It's not 'segregating' trans people, it's providing fucking services for them."

My partner was male-bodied when I met her but is legally female now. I have dated a trans man. I have met dozens of trans people. I am on a LGBT* group and have met more trans people. My Facebook is full of trans people. So you couldn't be more wrong.

And providing a third space is a service so long as it is optional but apply any pressure and it becomes segregation.

As to human rights, there are a dozen pages of equality law out there which is a direct result of work I did. I am responsible for policy changes by several public bodies including national ones.

You couldn't be more wrong about me. I know how to get things done. It's exhausting and I would rather not but when I say there would be a legal challenge to segregation, that is not hyperbole.