Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

413 replies

EmpressOfSpartacus · 24/06/2018 07:53

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-put-curbs-on-trans-rights-7zx2cbh2j?shareToken=71ea2e364a4682a6395af2056695238d

OP posts:
Bamc1977 · 25/06/2018 09:46

Can anyone confirm if this will apply in Scotland?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/06/2018 13:26

The Equality Act afaik isn't something the devolved governments can alter.

HerFemaleness · 26/06/2018 09:18

If a non-trans-man pervert/rapist really did want to go into a ladies' loo, why would he bother applying for a certificate that would make no difference to his legal right to be there, and which no-one would ask to see?

That's not the point. Currently if I see a man in the women's toilets at Asda I can get the shop security staff to get him kicked out.

If it becomes the norm to see male bodied people in the female toilets because it's about identity now, and if you have a feminine identity you can use the women's toilets even if you are still indisputably male looking, it makes it easier for men with ill-intent to abuse the system. It makes it nearly impossible for women to identify them. It makes it impossible for business owners to identify who should really be using the women's loo's.

It's creating a system which is ripe for abuse, and riding rough-shod over the real and still valid reasons why women have single sex provision. You appear to believe no man would ever take advantage of the weaknesses in such a system. I don't consider this to be a reasonable belief.

You said that no woman has ever been abused by a transwoman in a toilet. That's irrelevant. Women have been assaulted by men in unisex toilets, as well as victims of other sexual crimes such as voyeurism. If all our public toilets become unisex then it increases the risk of those sorts of crimes against women.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 26/06/2018 10:22

HerFemaleness
Currently if I see a man in the women's toilets at Asda I can get the shop security staff to get him kicked out.
You could. But you would be guilty of an
offence. So would the security guard, if he were silly enough to try it. And the shop manager if they condoned it.

It's creating a system which is ripe for abuse But it isn't. It just isn't! No one has ever asked to see my ID in order to use a public look (not even in the USA) and I don't even carryy GRC around with me. Making it marginally easier to get a GRC changes absolutely nothing about access to loos!
If all our public toilets become unisex then it increases the risk of those sorts of crimes against women. That's a matter of opinion, which I don't happen to share, but I don't feel enormously strongly about. What I do feel strongly about is my right to pee.

CiderIsRealAle · 26/06/2018 10:48

That's a matter of opinion, which I don't happen to share

The important thing is if women and girls share it and want male-free spaces.

but I don't feel enormously strongly about.

Why is your lack of feeling relevant?

What I do feel strongly about is my right to pee.

Everyone has a right to pee and women have fought to do it in a space where males are not allowed.

There are male toilets where people who are not female can both exercise their 'right to pee' at the same time as respecting women and girls hard-won entitlement to personal boundaries.

No one loses when people use the facilities designated for their actual sex.

HerFemaleness · 26/06/2018 11:28

^You could. But you would be guilty of an
offence. So would the security guard, if he were silly enough to try it. And the shop manager if they condone it^

Case in point. If there was no evidence that the individual in the toilet was trans or seeking to transition, there would be no offence in removing them from a female only area.

Trans activists are telling women that we must always assume that a man in a woman's toilet or changing area is trans. We must not question his presence there and to do so is to commit an offence. Trans activists tell us that there isn't a clash between trans and women's rights, but here you have it spelled out to you in black and white.

Wanderabout · 26/06/2018 11:33

Can anyone confirm if this will apply in Scotland?

Not in law as far as I know. Just watch how lobby groups edit their guidance documents.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/06/2018 11:51

Trans activists are also giving people false information in the hopes that they will believe it and that it will then be easier to achieve compliance with their aims.

A security guard would not get in trouble for removing a man from the women's toilets if the man did not say he was trans, and even if he did the security guard would still probably be fine.

Snappity · 26/06/2018 12:01

Everyone has a right to pee and women have fought to do it in a space where males are not allowed.

On a point of history, I suspect men secured that right for women.

FloralBunting · 26/06/2018 12:07

What's your point there, Snappity? Just curious.

ballsballsballs · 26/06/2018 12:08
Grin
UpstartCrow · 26/06/2018 12:10

Playing fast and loose with the word 'secured' there.

titchy · 26/06/2018 12:12

*Sex is binary

It really isn't.*

You utter pillock! Of course it is. If you want to reproduce, you need a male and female. There is no other option. Even the extremely dumb mice that launch themselves into my cat's mouth have figured that one out!

AngryAttackKittens · 26/06/2018 12:14

How do bunnies figure out which other bunnies to shag in order to make more bunnies? Truly a mystery for the ages. Maybe they hold a pronoun round before the shagging begins?

titchy · 26/06/2018 12:25

How do bunnies figure out which other bunnies to shag in order to make more bunnies? Truly a mystery for the ages. Maybe they hold a pronoun round before the shagging begins?

Grin
ErrolTheDragon · 26/06/2018 12:46

Single sex provision for various services is important to women and girls. This is impossible if there is no objective metric for determining who is female. It doesn't necessarily mean people have to carry ID - the fact that a male entering a female space knows that it can be proved he's a male will be a major deterrent. People's behaviour is greatly influenced, unfortunately, by what they can get away with. The definition of male/female has to be possible to verify.

Personally (I know many have good reason to disagree) I would be happy to say that someone with a GRC obtained after proper assessment that they are indeed trans and are unlikely to pose a danger to the opposite sex (so not TW who have a history of rape or violence towards women, not ever) would be deemed to have verified proof that they were allowed to access (some) female spaces. Analogous to a visa.

thebewilderness · 27/06/2018 01:30

On a point of history, I suspect men secured that right for women.

No. The men burned down the first women's public loo in London.
They felt rather strongly that they did not wish to share the public sphere with women and wanted women to keep to their homes. 150 years later they appear to be of the same mind.

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 01:48

Funnily enough bewilderness, a google search with the specific search 'men burn down first women's public toilet' does not offer me any information on this historical fact. Instead I get lots of offers of transadvocate opinions on why male-bodied people must have access to toilets for females. Google is so tiresome.

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 02:00

Seriously can anyone link me to that? I've seen the link before but the TRA techies have obviously decided that it's so damaging to the cause we are not allowed to see it.

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 02:10

I'm sick of this. All I can find is this

www.jstor.org/stable/3527271?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Please if anyone has the link, do post, I'll be so grateful

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 02:12

We talk about Orwellian but it's not just the language and the Newsspeak. It's the rewriting of history. If some TRA techies decide it didn't happen - voila. It disappears.

thebewilderness · 27/06/2018 03:05

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

Here is a bit of history.
I will find the bit about the men burning down the first women's public loo and post it.

Picassospaintbrush · 27/06/2018 03:12

We do have their balls in our hands right now.

Tell me what you want to do with this position?

I am paid to tell them, tell me please?

Picassospaintbrush · 27/06/2018 03:22

I take that back. I know already.

Pratchet · 27/06/2018 04:48

Rowan thank you. I have tried so many combinations of words, and delved in five to six pages. I feel like I might have to go to an encyclopaedia.