Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

[EmpressOfSpartacus]

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-put-curbs-on-trans-rights-7zx2cbh2j?shareToken=71ea2e364a4682a6395af2056695238d

"I would not want to get undressed or to sleep in a hospital ward, dormitory or prison etc. with a male bodied person. I would be happy to include female bodied trans people in these spaces."

That's positive, but there is one thing I don't understand. In hospitals there are visitors of both sexes, and nurses too. In what way is this different?

I would not want to get undressed or to sleep in a hospital ward, dormitory or prison etc. with a male bodied person. I would be happy to include female bodied trans people in these spaces.

I can't imagine anyone here would object to Trans men in our spaces.

In what way is it different?

Er. The sleeping. The vulnerability of the sleeper whilst sleeping???? The taking off of the clothes?? The vulnerabilty of the person who has to undress ???

"#ManFriday have been at the forefront of this and it's brilliant."

They are great at proving that although women say that they only feel safe if trans women are excluded from single sex spaces, women are actually comfortable in male spaces. #ManFriday are proving to everyone that no change to single sex spaces is needed. They are doing a brilliant job as you say.

Snappity
In hospitals there are visitors of both sexes, and nurses too. In what way is this different?
Could you define what you mean as 'sexes'?

I see

Can't think of how to reply to that one.

The only objection I would have is this. If someone like Buck Angel, who passes completely, were to use women's toilets, the intention would only be to cause mischief. Plus, they (in general, not Buck) have a higher propensity, according to the Swedish study, of committing violent crime.

If they pass there's no reason for them to use transient female spaces like loos, gym change, shop fitting rooms etc.

When I first realised what was going on, there was very little media coverage. Now there's loads and so much of it is positive. #ManFriday have been at the forefront of this and it's brilliant. You never know what they'll do next and it's all done so politely and as said above with humour.

Agree. Absolutely credit to ManFriday. There is no doubt that their campaign bought this to the public attention. I agree as well that the way they conduct themselves is fantastic and that's why they have such a lot of support.

I'd absolutely have no objection to female bodied trans people in female spaces.

"I can't imagine anyone here would object to Trans men in our spaces."

So you have no objection to trans men with beards, testosterone, honed bodies and male bits and who look male, just to trans women with boobs, estrogen and vulnerability and who look female.

Kettlepotblackagain They have loads of respect too. It's how gently they do what they do that grabs attention.

women are actually comfortable in male spaces

Some women may be. Many others aren't. Women who've been raped or otherwise physically abused by males. Women from some cultures and religions.

Re hospitals... nurses are healthcare professionals and visitors on hospital wards have restricted visiting hours.

"In hospitals there are visitors of both sexes, and nurses too. In what way is this different?
*Could you define what you mean as 'sexes'?""

There are both male and female visitors.

The Man Friday blog

Snappity: they can go in the men's - why not?

Kettlepotblackagain They have loads of respect too. It's how gently they do what they do that grabs attention.

They were really what got me fully involved in this issue. I have such respect for the way they got their point across.

They were really what got me fully involved in this issue. I have such respect for the way they got their point across.

It just goes to show, punching people, bomb threats, intimidation and doxxing won't advance your cause but gentle humour will.

I'd absolutely have no objection to female bodied trans people in female spaces.
This

snappity

Visiting hours are controlled and nursing staff are happy to help you prepare for visiting hours so you are suitable dressed etc. If you feel vulnerable they will pull the curtains around your bed etc. during those hours.

Patients do not have to receive intimate care from opposite sex practitioners. Also, medical staff have special training with regard to respecting boundaries etc that most patients wouldn’t have.

I can fully empathise with the difficulties trans people can experience with same sex provision when this conflicts with their gender identity. This is probably because I experience difficulties with mixed sex provision. This is why I fully support suitable provision for trans people who would experience distress from using provision that matches their sex.

massive

I am interested in how a male bodied person having a certificate makes you happy to have them in a space for people with female sexed bodies, but not a male bodied person without a certificate.

When the rationale for a provision is difference in sexed bodies, how does a certificate have relevance.

We need to give people more confidence in their reasoning when they have to make these single-sex exemption decisions.

In some ways it is similiar to health and safety law in that most people do not have the legal/logical skills to confidently interpret the law according to its intention and we get massive over or weird reactions.

A blanket ban could be problematic but similar to a risk assessment, the policy just needs a moments consideration to qualify as not being a blanket ban. A person applies for a rape counsellers position in a women's charity - the manager considers the issue of sex. Do the reasons/ conditions for the female only policy still exist? YES Could it be achieved in another way without exlcuding males? NO, then the policy holds. This is all that is needed under the law. Some campaigns are trying to shake our confidence, that is all. Gaslighting.

Test cases are needed but women's organisation tend to lack money and exposure, unlike some other groups :(

I once tried to get legal help for a test case to do with disability under the EA that would have significantly benefitted many other disabled people, but although I did have a very clear case, and gone throught at length with the EASS etc, none of the top civil rights firms were interested. I couldn't do it on my own because of the difficulties of coping with disability. Only one firm called back an they wanted £540 per hour. Some groups are more 'worthy' of help than others it seems.

As a person can obtain a GRC and remain 'intact' I and many other women would feel highly uncomfortable so I cannot accept that as a licence to be able to enter spaces where women should be afforded safety, privacy, dignity and respect.

The hospital ward thing is interesting. On single sex wards you get staff of both sexes working, who will see you in vulnerable, naked, emabarrassing bodies states.

Most patients are ok with both male and female hcps because their priority at that time I should to get the professional care they need.

I think the difference with sharing a ward with a person not of your gender is that they are not required to be professional, and they don't spend their working life looking at bodies, plus they are there with you 24 hours, often for days or weeks at a time. So staff is different to fellow patients. If you want to complain about medical staff you can do that and often the first response is that the member of staff is kept away from you.

Similar for prison staffing I expect, though I have experienced that myself.

To those saying they would be perfectly happy if trans men used women's spaces, I'm not sure that bears scrutiny. Trans men often pass more readily than trans women. Women are highly alert to men in women's spaces. Trans men are treated with hostility in women's spaces from fairly early in transition, and women don't hold back if they read someone as male in the ladies loos.

I don't think I would be ok with having a trans man in the next bed, or in a changing room. Which seems weird, but is true. Knowing that someone is biologically female doesn't seem to stop the part of your brain that reads gender signals from interpreting that person as male.