Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ministers commit to preserving sex-based exemptions

413 replies

EmpressOfSpartacus · 24/06/2018 07:53

Open access link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-put-curbs-on-trans-rights-7zx2cbh2j?shareToken=71ea2e364a4682a6395af2056695238d

OP posts:
spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 19:59

Story is in the Indy too.

Elletorro · 24/06/2018 20:01

Snappity

Would you agree that there should be a cheaper, easier access to justice for both gender reassigned people and women challenging institutions which fail to adequately balance rights with regards to single sex services?

massivelyouting · 24/06/2018 20:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsBeaujangles · 24/06/2018 20:04

snappity

What do you think the point of sex segregated provision is? What is the point of having male and female wards when access is not determined by sexed bodies?

You object to third spaces but not to stealth mixed sex. Why don’t you just campaign to abolish single sex provision?

Pratchet · 24/06/2018 20:05

❤️❤️
I notice the Indy headline is all about the people with Y chromosomes. Default assumption.

Pratchet · 24/06/2018 20:08

It just does not make any sense!

That just shows that you don't understand
A. Boundaries
B. Consent

You haven't made a point. You've just proved that a woman's 'NO' absolutely mystifies you.

PeakPants · 24/06/2018 20:09

I don't have a penis. I have a vagina. Am I OK?

I think many women would be okay with that (including me) and I think this is why this whole issue has only blown up recently. When the GRA was passed, people imagined old-school transsexuals like yourself, not people who chose to remain fully intact. The problem is that I don't think we can mandate that people have surgery, as surgery is expensive and risky.

Pre-op, there is no way I would have put myself in the position of having to undress in front of other people—for my sake or theirs! I think most trans people are the same.

Some are, but given that most trans people will not go on to have surgery, they are presumably using changing facilities etc without undergoing physical transition. I think the goalposts have shifted now- for many younger transgender people, it is now perfectly acceptable to retain and be proud of the original sexed body (you hear things about female penises etc). Also, groups like Stonewall include cross-dressing people under the trans umbrella.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for people with genuine gender dysphoria who transition. I was watching a clip of an interview with April Ashley the other day and it was very very moving and at university, I remember reading Bellinger v Bellinger and being outraged at the court's decision. I actually think the government is letting down both women and old-school transsexuals by being so blase about gender and making it just about filling in a form and suggesting that people can transition an unlimited number of times.

And for those who do pass and nobody knows, I don't think it's an issue and they wouldn't cause any discomfort to women (if those women had no idea the person was trans).

PermissionToSpeakSir · 24/06/2018 20:09

2 comments in the Indy from the bat signal woman-hating brigade.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 20:09

I suggest donating to women's rights here They are "A campaign of films and information outreach to ensure women’s and girls' rights are defended during the government consultation on the GRA."

Who knows where they may be able to branch off too with enough money.

Snappity · 24/06/2018 20:09

"Law is passed by parliament - are you saying you're an MP? Otherwise, you're a lobbyist, which is a laudable profession but really not the same as being a law maker."
Law is also passed when the Government loses certain types of judicial review - or realises before court that its case is hopeless.

PeakPants · 24/06/2018 20:09

I know how to get things done.

I literally just snorted tea over my keyboard.

massivelyouting · 24/06/2018 20:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuperDandy · 24/06/2018 20:17

The recurring suggestion of third space also dies t hold up to scrutiny.

If you are concerned for safety of female bodies in the presence of male bodies, which GC says it is, then a third space is equally problematic, containing, as it would, natal male genitals, natal female genitals, surgically created male genitals and surgically created female genitals. It's such a profoundly flawed "solution" that no organisation will touch it with a barge pole. And that's just on the safety argument grounds, without even getting into the human rights.

Snappity · 24/06/2018 20:20

"What do you think the point of sex segregated provision is? What is the point of having male and female wards when access is not determined by sexed bodies? You object to third spaces but not to stealth mixed sex. Why don’t you just campaign to abolish single sex provision?"

Because as a woman I want single sex facilities. But I believe in equality so I won't throw trans women off the bus. There's no perfect answer. Personally I believe Self-ID is the best option because those who just want to cross-dress at weekends aren't going to change ID which affects their work and the rest of their social life.

Kettlepotblackagain · 24/06/2018 20:20

Big love to the amazing women on here - Pratchett, Sponty and Lang.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 24/06/2018 20:20

Kettlepotblackagain
^I'd very much like to hear more from the trans male community.
It's funny but it just appears to be the trans born male that are more vocal.^

The word is trans-women.
And the main reason you hear more from us than from trans-men is because they don't have to constantly defend themselves against an endless barrage of misleading propaganda.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 20:21

There are times I love the private forum I post in. It's a haven of peace, calm and free speech. There are times I love it when people post on here, it shows the whole world who they are - we should take note!

Snappity · 24/06/2018 20:23

The actions of a public authority can be ruled illegal in judicial review but a new law is not passed in a judicial review.

Now, but it is possible to get an agreement for a Statutory Instrument to be presented as part of a settlement. It is also possible to then work with the public body on what needs to be in the SI.

BeyondFemaleElitist · 24/06/2018 20:24

Very true, spontaneous

Ereshkigal · 24/06/2018 20:25

I don't think this is entirely fair. It's not just about safety, it is about privacy and dignity. 9 times out of 10, you as a trans woman would not be attacked in the gents, but there are other reasons why it is not appropriate for you to use it.

Well said.

Kettlepotblackagain · 24/06/2018 20:26

I suggest donating to women's rights <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.crowdfunder.co.uk/the-campaign-to-save-sex-based-rights" target="_blank">heree** They are "A campaign of films and information outreach to ensure women’s and girls' rights are defended during the government consultation on the GRA."

Who knows where they may be able to branch off too with enough money.*

Another great link, thanks Spontaneous. I'll definitely be sharing this on social media.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/06/2018 20:27

Kettlepotblackagain I saw it this morning and donated straight away. I meant to post it here and got sidetracked.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 24/06/2018 20:29

spontaneousgiventime
Kettlepotblackagain I recommend reading their own words. It is quite fascinating and not being that way inclined myself an eye opener. Try a forum, American ones are the most open and revealing.
That explains a lot.
So you are basing your opinions of trans people on posts that appear on US-based public-access forums. The ones that trans people don't bother with because they are full of weirdos discussing stuff that doesn't interest us. And which anti-trans propagandists get onto so that they can create fake stories about things that they clam to have "read on a trans forum".

massivelyouting · 24/06/2018 20:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsBeaujangles · 24/06/2018 20:31

Thank you for answering my question snappity. I do appreciate it.

Because as a woman I want single sex facilities. But I believe in equality so I won't throw trans women off the bus

I am with you in not wanting to throw trans people under buses. I genuinely want to find an acceptable solution for all.

Your answer does suggest you see the value in single sex provision. Can you not see that it becomes mixed sex provision the moment a person of a different sex (as determined by their sexed body) enters it.