Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Supporting men who break stereotypes.

329 replies

lurker33 · 20/06/2018 14:39

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

OP posts:
daimbars · 22/06/2018 22:51

Boo!

And I agree with Silver:

people who use blackface are not doing so for their own wellbeing or for anything to do with who they identify as - it’s an imitation or mockery. I don’t think that’s fair to say of someone who identifies as trans though. Which was my original point and the reason I was uncomfortable with the OP.

daimbars · 22/06/2018 22:53

Hang on how can I be on the same page as silver but in a library in a different galaxy from the rest of you?

YY to this too.

sweeping statements as in the OP about dissenting from anything that acknowledges trans people in law seems a bit unnecessary an discriminatory.

lurker33 · 22/06/2018 22:56

Ok, so perhaps I've not been making myself clear, sorry about that.

What I was trying to say was that, if a man identifies as trans then the only way that person can be perceived as a woman is to 'act' or 'dress' like a woman.

How can you 'act' or 'dress' like a woman if you are a man? If you think it means that they have to wear dresses and make up then you are telling women that don't do this that they are not women. If they say it's because they like pink and frilly things then you are telling women that if they don't like those things they are not women. However they want to describe it they will be excluding one or more women somewhere.

All women are different, the only thing all women share across the world is biology. This is why I believe a man cannot be a woman.

Daimbars - as I am a brunette I can't get angry about people bleaching their hair for the reasons you state. What I could get annoyed about is said people bleaching their hair and insisting I believe they are a natural blonde. Hmm

OP posts:
spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:02

OP, I wouldn't give Daim a second thought, they spend most of their day tying themselves up in knots, then bigger knots trying to untangle. The frothing about hair dye is simply an example of this.

daimbars · 22/06/2018 23:02

I get it OP you don't believe in the phenomenon of being transgender. I expect it's hard to imagine if you don't have any experience of trans people.

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 23:08

SilverDoe

It is an exact analogy.
It is white men punching down.
If you want to believe anything a person says who wears woman face and nothing a person says who wears blackface that is your perogative.
We all have our hypocrisies.

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 23:13

In the context of trans women dressing in women’s clothes, I don’t think the same can be said that it is universally agreeable that is offensive to all women.

This is one of my favorite MRA talking points. Until all women agree that is bad, wrong, and offensive, the men will continue to do it.
I think the most popular word filling the blank is catcalling, at the moment.

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 23:15

daimbars Fri 22-Jun-18 23:02:45 I get it OP you don't believe in the phenomenon of being transgender. I expect it's hard to imagine if you don't have any experience of trans people.

Imagining is easy. It is the believing the unpossible that is unpossible. That is why TRAs are trying to codify belief into law.
That never ends well.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 23:17

bewilderness I don’t think I’m being hypocritical at all Confused

But I suppose whether I am being hypocritical or not would depend on how you regard trans people. Clearly you and I have different interpretations.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:21

SilverDoe Take it from me, what thebewilderness doesn't know about feminism isn't worth knowing. Her and I have clashed on here but by God do I admire her knowledge. She has probably forgotten more than I will ever know. Instead of answering her back and thinking you know best - read her posts - I do and I learn!

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 23:22

This is one of my favorite MRA talking points. Until all women agree that __ is bad, wrong, and offensive, the men will continue to do it.
I think the most popular word filling the blank is catcalling, at the moment

My apologies bewilderness, that was clumsily worded of me. Of course it’s not right that misogynistic behaviour should be acceptable, even if there are women who disagree that it is offensive.

My only point is that I don’t think being trans is inherently misogynistic. Obviously TRA ideology is unbelievably misogynistic, and the fact that it is even being entertained is terrifying. But does trans = TRA automatically?

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 23:24

spontaneous how dare you be so patronising?

I am allowed to engage in discussion, to the benefit of myself and others. THis is forum isn’t it, made for dialogue.

Or should I just be a good little girl, be quiet and let the grown ups tell me how it is Hmm

Jesus.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:26

SilverDoe Don't be ridiculous. I wasn't being patronising at all. You yourself admitted you were new to the board. I'm guiding you to women who can help grow your knowledge. FFS if your going to foam over that then your going to be flattened posting on these boards.

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 23:29

SilverDoe Fri 22-Jun-18 23:24:28 spontaneous how dare you be so patronising?

Hoist by your own petard.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 23:30

So accusing me of “answering back” like an insolent child isn’t patronising?

I think I will choose not to engage with you from now on spontaneous, you are treating me like an idiot. I am perfectly fine with you and anyone disagreeing with me or taking issue with my views; I welcome it and accept, in all areas not just feminism, that there are many many people in the world who know much more than me. I do not need to be told not to “answer back” because I disagree with someone, even if that person is very very clever. I would rather have a discussion with the actual person I am disagreeing with on the matter, rather than with someone who has no other input but to tell me to not speak.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:30

thebewilderness Summat like that Grin

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:32

SilverDoe To use a thebewilderness saying:

Your slip is showing.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 23:35

I’m not sure what either of those phrases means.

It’s nice to know that rather that discuss things with anyone who does not share your line of thinking, you choose to just ridicule me instead. I’ve been very clear on this whole thread that my intention is not to offend anyone and I’ve not made any sweeping or ill intentioned comments towards anyone.

It’s clear I’m not welcome here and that’s disappointing.

Picassospaintbrush · 22/06/2018 23:36

spontaneousgiventime has got the hump.

Don't take it personally.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:38

SilverDoe Stick around, you'll soon learn what they mean. You'll also get your arse handed to you more than once, we all have. If you can't take what I've said up thread then when someone really does have something to say you don't like it's not going to be pretty. That's the nature of this board. Women with strong views and excellent bullshit detectors.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:39

Picassospaintbrush Moi the hump? Actually I'm in a good mood today, tomorrow who knows Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 23:43

Sponantous and I had a little tiff when we first encountered each other and get along great now! Really, people need to chill out and not assume the worst the moment they encounter snark or resistance.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 23:43

Would be great if I could type properly...

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 23:46

AngryAttackKittens Only because when you put your claws away I saw the marshmallow centre

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 23:48

Hah! Seriously though I have no idea what to do with people who get mortally offended the moment anyone is less than enthusiastically welcoming and then hold that grudge forever. Don't get it. People always give each other shit on forums, it's the nature of the beast.