Supporting men who break stereotypes.

[lurker33]

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

It’s not the snark that I have an issue with, I don’t mean to be sniffy it’s just I don’t like being treated like a fool without any reason given - I was interested in the discussion and I was hoping to get some answer on what other women here think on the trans vs TRA thing. I don’t think that me disagreeing with somebody, even a regular poster, makes me fair game for ridicule, but I promise I won’t take it to heart too much.

AngryAttackKittens Exactly! Added to which my posting style is abrasive as fuck, I say it as it is. People who've been here a while know what I'm like and are used to it. Newbies to the board are not, so take offence. Big girl pants I'm afraid.

I think most people here make a clear distinction between trans people as a whole (may or may not agree with their view of their own condition and what it means in terms of how other people should react to them, will certainly analyze it in ways that they may not be comfortable with because we're feminists and we analyze everything that has an impact on women) and TRAs (unreasonable shouty people making absurd statements and demands).

SilverDoe Ok, I will apologise if I offended you. In truth you will get used to me. I am abrasive, I don't candy coat and I speak my mind. Being a newbie to the board you don't know this, so I'll be the bigger person as I've been here longer.

That’s interesting Kittens. I do think the experience of FWR depends on whether you are part of the in-group or the out group though. If you manage to become part of the core, it probably feels like an incredibly supportive community. When you’re not, it’s not quite the same experience. I don’t think it’s wrong or weak or out of order to point that out. I know some people pride themselves on being straight talkers and that is fine but at the same time it does need to be acknowledged that that straight talking can affect how others experience the boards. But it’s interesting to hear of past spats and making up and now getting on well. It gives a bit of hope to the rest of us.

All forums are like that though, that dynamic isn't unique to this one.

PeakPants I've had spats here, I've had my arse handed to me Part of the natural rhythm of the board. I don't hold grudges but I will take the piss. People know what I'm like and so know what makes me tick. There are some who know how to press my buttons and they try. I doubt there is a poster here who isn't the same and who doesn't accept it as part of board life.

I'm trying to note the attempts at button pushing and disable the buttons so it doesn't work.

Some people have a natural gift for goading though.

Some people have a natural gift for goading though. They are posters who really do piss me off. They goad to try and get a reaction they can report. I hate goady fuckers.

Thank you Kittens :)

That’s what I was hoping to hear and it sounds sensible.

True. Part of the problem is that the tone of the written word is harder to interpret.
I would say though just as an observation that unless someone is an obvious troll, attacking the argument rather than the person is imo better and more constructive. There aren’t many good feminist forums and even if I was a straight talker, i wouldn’t want to potentially drive away feminists just because they had different viewpoints.

PeakPants It's got nothing to do with wanting to drive anyone away. Hell I can't stand the TRA's who come here and post walls of shite but they have their uses. Lurkers reading the crap then seeing it dismantled makes them see what a change to the GRA could be like for women.

Imagine how I was perceived when I first came here.

It's fascinating how every thread breaks out in a bit of slapping each other about periodically.

It's the group formation process, forming, storming, norming, performing. This management theory is as old as the hills and yet so timeless. Each new voice creates a little ripple of these four stages, especially if it's a strong one.

Anyway, apologies for the learning interlude, as you were, coming out of norming, into performing.
Google it if you think it's bullocks.

SilverDoe I have to agree with what the others have said, a lot of what can be taken as patronising sarcasm is meant as nothing but harmless fun.

When I first started posting here, I think I got a bit overwhelmed in a thread, I got a bit worked up and then made a bit of a doofus of myself.

I am fairly certain that most of the prominent posters on this thread aren’t too fond of most of what I say but I come here even after getting grilled because I think that overall, it’s important to show all sides of a debate.

I do however think that despite me saying it several times.. people seem to not be seeing or reading when I say that being trans is not about dresses or makeup.. it’s about our bodies. Transwomen use various tools to try to make ourselves less obviously male.. not to be a parody..

@daimbars - sorry for disappearing earlier, in answer to what you mentioned, I do not yet have a GRC but I’m 276 days since my name change which is when I started my 2 year timer. :)

Also apologies to people for constantly nipping in and out of threads atm.. I have kind of met someone and she has been distracting me from MN lol. I know it’s totally off topic but it’s nice to share a bit of happy news from time to time right??

It's fascinating how every thread breaks out in a bit of slapping each other about periodically.

Tis true that.

SilverDoe

We don't usually check to see if people are old or new or came over from AIBU.
If you cannot take a bit of ribbing this is not the place for you.
Feminist analyze the bejeepers out of everything. If you do not like analysis this is not the place for you.
I do not personally care whether you stay or go; the whining about women not being nice enough to suit and flouncing off is usually derided as trollish behavior.

Miscommunications definitely happen more easily online, which is another reason to try not to take it too personally.

AngryAttackKittens

YY.

I am definitely guilty of this.

Miscommunications definitely happen more easily online, which is another reason to try not to take it too personally.

Exactly, there is no emotion in the written word. Anyway it appears my apology was not accepted. I tried.

Also I think Nat and I disagree on a lot of things and yet we managed to have a perfectly friendly exchange of PMs at one point. The women here aren't scary evil monsters, honestly, no matter how much some of our more persistent goaders might want you to believe that we are.

I’m not whining or flouncing, I was just discussing something and it seemed to turn into a bit of a personal slight on me, which is fair enough, but it did make me feel unwelcome. It’s of course not your responsibility to make me feel welcome and of course I don’t expect you to care whether I find it upsetting or if I continue to post, but it doesn’t change that I felt those things and it doesn’t mean I can’t express that.

I understand what all of you are saying and I’ve already said I won’t take it to heart. Perhaps you are right that I’m not built for forums because I am sensitive and I am also quite objective, I don’t really care about peoples mannerisms specifically but I do like to discuss the discussed rather than turn to posts about posters. But being new to not only this forum but forums I’m general I’m sure that’s not the status quo and nor am I a saying it should be.

I don’t want to derail the thread and make it about me and I was genuinely interested in the points of view on the thread. Especially NatLuc your point about being trans being about your bodies and the absence of masculinity as opposed to the presence of femininity is what I was trying (and failing) to articulate. I don’t agree with the OP still for the reasons I’ve already said but it’s nice to hear that there is a reasonable amount of acceptance and that there is an observed difference between trans people and TRAs, which is what I was confused about in the OP, which seemed quite heavily against the entire concept of transgender people.

spontaneous your apology is warmly accepted and I’m sorry if I came across as overly sensitive :) I have a 7 month old who does not sleep for more than a couple of hours at a time so I am continually frazzled and often have to resort to skim reading through MN!

I don't agree with anything Nat says but I don't hate them and I do try to remain civil. I just don't take crap and I think Nat was quite taken aback at some of the very forthright views.

I do admit I'm glad they have cut down on the wall of text I used to scroll past as it was just too long and time consuming to read.

What I keep trying to get across in these threads is that for those for whom this is applicable there really needs to be a cultural space made for "male but not masculine", and also "female but not feminine". It would solve a lot of problems.

SilverDoe T'is ok. I'm old and get grouchy sometimes and have little patience. You'll get used to me. My grand kids roll their eyes and smile sweetly.