Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

In other news, I have a lovely bridge to sell you...

No.

And every day I feel my NO NO NO NO NO NO getting stronger and louder because of people like Daim.

Not the same

Not in my name

I will not accept the blame

"massivelyouting well done to your dd. My dd is on the spectrum and uniform is a bit of an issue for her!

Just thinking about this this morning, and aside from shelters, loos, sports etc. Rape crisis suites. After all when one has been raped, one definitely does not want a man there.

Not a shell game
No more rename.

No

But what if...

Still no.

Yeah but have you considered..?

I have, and nope.

Yeah but...

This is a very unpleasant way to behave.

"I don’t either. But I’m rearing daughters and imbuing them with the confidence to ask."

How depressing. No woman should have to prove she is a woman.

I know I shouldn't bite, but please, onlookers, notice Snappity here, helpfully displaying the attitude that it is wrong for women to have the confidence to make sure of their comfort and safety.

@Snappity

How depressing. No woman should have to ask twice for a female to undertake an intimate procedure or be offered a male HCP to do that procedure when a female is requested.

I am a woman, proud to be one, and happy to discuss this with anyone who wants to talk. I'd provide a blood test or birth certificate if I needed to prove I was female, why would it be insulting to have to do so?

My nephew needs to prove he is 18 before he can buy alcohol. My in-laws needed to prove they were OAPs to get their pension. My husband needs to show his ID to even enter his work place. My friend had a blue disability sticker for her car (bet she had to prove she needed it).

If you really do belong to a certain category, why is it an issue to have to show evidence?

Gosh, it's so depressing when women have boundaries and aren't afraid to assert them.

No woman should have to prove she is a woman.

Why not? I can't imagine that many women would object to this. Especially in the context of appropriately caring for their patients.

I love this argument that essentially none of us can perceive biological sex in other human beings without medical tests. How on earth did anyone ever reproduce if we're all bumbling about trying to decide whether, for example, Jo in Accounts is male or female?

There are certain ethnicities in which people can be very convincing when presenting as the opposite sex. British males, generally speaking, do not. They may think they pass because no one's said anything, but typically people are just trying to be kind to someone they regard as vulnerable and disturbed.

The male HCP who turned up to do the poor woman's smear (he was employed as male, so I'm not misgendering) after she'd explicitly asked for a woman either thought the patient wouldn't be able to tell his sex or that his right to his identity trumped the woman's expressed wishes. Either way, it's dreadful practice. The first option suggests a level of delusion too.

In toilets and things, proving you're a woman is realistically not going to be possible and it may have harmful consequences like butch women being mistaken for men and being disbelieved when they then can't produce their 'GRC'. It's also far from true that all toilets are staffed and have security guards on hand. Many are not apart from being checked and cleaned daily. I think making some unisex spaces available where possible instead will help because many natal women will start to use them too and using them will say nothing about your gender. With the possible exception of some militant trans activists, I think many trans people will be happy to use them.

With rape crisis centres etc, it's a bit different, because the centre would have greater access to records etc, but obviously it is not entirely foolproof. For homeless shelters for instance, you are often dealing with people with limited records and maybe without ID on them. Again, I think providing more unisex spaces and provision specifically for trans people and tailored towards their unique issues is likely to help. The problem is that our society appears to cater only for the male/female binary and for people who strongly feel that they don't fit into the male category, I can understand that distress is caused, because there is no other option but male and female. Maybe if there were, if there was greater provision of services for people of different backgrounds, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. For example if you are a trans woman and you are raped, there are few services that you can be referred to but if there were more, trans people may not feel a need to access women's services.

proving you're a woman is realistically not going to be possible and it may have harmful consequences like butch women being mistaken for men and being disbelieved

Entirely caused by transactivism

Trans people can fight for their services, like women did

Let's face it they could get it tomorrow if they really wanted it

They don't, they aren't campaigning for it, they want women only services ended

I've seen loads of butch women (or a least a few!) and I never think they are male. I don't want people carded outside public toilets but for all things like being on a female sports team, entering an accommodation for females, hospital procedures etc, it should be easy to legally work out who is female.

How about...

Would you back self-id if...

... your house was on fire and the fire brigade would only come if you did?

No.

... I held a gun to your head?

No.

... I thcweamed and thcweamed until I was sick?

No.

Re. the example of cervical smears, I had a horrific smear test this week (and unsuccessful one - I have to go back and have it done again). It was horrible for purely physical reasons, not because I have any history of abuse. Just unlucky that on the day my cervix had decided to play hide and seek. 6 failed attempts, varying sizes of speculums, labia hauled this way and that in the attempt to get the instrument pointed in the right direction to get a clear view, uterine cramps, back ache, stabbing pains when bits of flesh got nipped, even shooting pains in my ovaries.

The thought that if changes to the GRA go through and I could be viewed in the same way as a racist bigot, for insisting that this procedure was carried out by a biological female, chills me to the bone. If I'd been confronted by someone trans who put their need for validation of their gender identity above my need for psychological comfort while undergoing a traumatic physical procedure on my genitals, then I would have felt as though the examination was a sexual assault.

At this point I expect a handmaiden to pop up (yes, I am deliberately using the word handmaiden with its full pejorative intention in this sentence, and yes I am on the other thread) and say "but self ID legislation won't lead there."

To which my answer is: how the fuck can we know this?

How can we know if you won't let us debate? How can we know if the proposals aren't subject to scrutiny before they find their way onto the statute books? How can we know if (as James Kirkup reveals in his latest blog post) many many MPs are gender critical but even they, our elected representatives, are afraid to speak up publicly? How can we know if attempts to discuss the implications are met with bomb threats?

I'll tell you the answer: we fucking well can't.

So my answer is still NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

Same Italian but there are lots of ignorant people out there. Even where I worked (in a law firm) there were stupid rumours about how one employee ‘used to be a man’ because she was 6 ft 2 and had ‘big hands’. All a load of bollocks- she had given birth to 2 children but she said she used to get abuse for ‘being a tranny’ when she was out. I just don’t think anyone should be encouraged to challenge people like that because some people will abuse it. I also don’t like the idea of people having to carry ID but I guess many are in favour of that (for other reasons too). But I think third spaces and encouraging trans people to use them will help.

I am a woman and want to make sure I'm doing my bit to support women but I'm also a big advocate of LGBT equality.

Lesbians are women, & I don't think there's any support for women nowadays in the LGBTalphabetsoup. I'd say that nowadays LGBT is mainly a synonym for trans & that any movement that's trying to replace sex with gender is actively homophobic.

I'm not meaning to be abusive or offensive so apologies if it comes across like that. I genuinely am unsure where my loyalties lie with this one. I am a woman and want to make sure I'm doing my bit to support women but I'm also a big advocate of LGBT equality.

Checks date. Nope. It's still June; April is months away.

Would you back self ID?

No.

... if...

No. None of the IFs. There is no IF. There is just the NO.

It is not women’s responsibility to fix this, sort this, give up our rights, move up, budge up, lie down or bend over. The answer is no.

We all know what men who don’t accept no do.

If the trans lobby is so powerful then why are t they campaigning hard for trans services? Surely they are needed? A transperson will have a specific set of difficulties, issues and challenges that cannot even be addressed well by women’s services because these are two different lives experiences.

The answer is NO.