Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

If I'd been confronted by someone trans who put their need for validation of their gender identity above my need for psychological comfort while undergoing a traumatic physical procedure on my genitals, then I would have felt as though the examination was a sexual assault.

Exactly.

And 👏 your whole post Fermats

There are certain ethnicities in which people can be very convincing when presenting as the opposite sex.

I'm going to speculate that this is only true outside their own ethnic groups. I suspect that women from within the same ethnicities have absolutely no trouble distinguishing a man from a woman.

I'm sure you're right, Cardsfor. It's a form of racism, isn't it? Like Japanese people saying that all white people look the same.

Peakpants, in the country I currently live (not UK) it is mandatory for everyone above 14 to always carry ID. Not a big deal.

Like people say, you have to prove for other categories, not a big deal to prove your sex. It is a big reason why the legal lie of changing sex needs to go.

sanluca yes I know ID cards are mandatory in many countries and I rarely if ever go out without ID myself unless exercising. Traditionally we have resisted that in the UK and the pressure for them often comes from right wing groups who think they help to weed out illegal immigrants.

Did you all see the gender-neutral passports case in the news today. A campaigner lost the fight for passports to be gender neutral and to simply say X instead of M and F.

I'm going to speculate that this is only true outside their own ethnic groups. I suspect that women from within the same ethnicities have absolutely no trouble distinguishing a man from a woman.

I would third that comment.

I reckon I will copy and paste my odyssey post into a new thread ‘The Updated Equality Act according to Betty 2018’.

Please do Betty, it is far too important to be lost in the middle of a massive thread.

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

No.

A transwoman never has the same lived experience as a woman. They do not understand issues around pregnancy, parenthood, fertility etc which are a huge part of feminism and directly contribute to many "women's issues"- How can a transwoman understand the burden of contraception always falling on you? Knowing a pregnancy would ruin your life? Having to get an abortion? Going through a traumatic birth/pregnancy and being disbelieved by health professionals (look at the fast labour thread for so much evidence of this)? The issues mothers face in the workplace... Obviously not all women would experience all or any of these things- but we are all aware they may be a possibility for us and have a vested interest in this. Therefore a transwoman can never represent us as a woman's officer or in a female only panel because their lived experience will be totally different.

They did not grow up facing sexual harassment in primary school, they did not grow up with grown men leering at them as a teenager, or trying to have sex with them or trying to groom them. They did not grow up being shamed for the clothes they wore but also being shamed for not being pretty enough. They did not become a young woman who was not taken seriously at work and talked over and put down by young men who cannot believe they are wrong. They had every privilege in their early career if they presented as a white, straight male. They never felt attacked by the newspaper headlines that talked about girls doing better in GCSEs or getting more places for medicine as though this was against the natural order of things.

Their early life experiences are not the same and they cannot speak for women and they do not speak for me- just as I do not speak for them. I would never presume to put myself forwards as a "trans-officer" so how can they say they are a woman? Our issues are totally different and conflating the two helps neither group.

In sport, it is a fairness and safety issue and this goes on forever.

Trans people are trans people and maybe need their own spaces and sports and panels. They don't belong in women's spaces.

Trans people are trans people and maybe need their own spaces and sports and panels. They don't belong in women's spaces.

And they can spend their time and energy lobbying for them, rather than lobbying to access women's spaces.

Thanks @LadyLance I think that's the most persuasive argument I've read on this thread.

Wow, thank you @daimbars .

I think while not every woman will have every experience I have mentioned, I do think they think a lot about all/most of the experiences I have mentioned. For example, I have never had an abortion, but I know as a teenager, my female friends and I all talked about whether and when we would consider getting an abortion. I bet our male friends did not have this conversation. I can, for example, imagine myself as a fifteen year old scared and burying my head in the sand and understanding why a twelve week limit on abortion would not work well. I am sure some men have the imagination to get to this point- and I think many would agree with me if I explained the scenario to them. I don't think they would think of it themselves.

I don't think men ever understand that feeling of fear for your physical safety that happens sometimes when you are a woman. For some trans people, I get this is an issue, but I think it presents itself in very different ways. If I have a one night stand I always text a friend the address, just in case something happens to me and I let the man know I am doing this. However, to be fair, I can probably use a bathroom or changing room without fear of being attacked (at the moment). I think male-to-female trans people see this aggression as directed solely at them because they just never saw it when they were presenting as men. They don't get it because they have never actually experienced life as a woman.

Equally, whilst I would feel comfortable in some circumstances representing the general interests of white, middle class women, I don't think I can truly understand or think of all the issues that women of colour or working class or disabled women face. I would want to listen to them and support them in areas I don't understand so well. However, I do think their issues are my issues and they are my sisters and making things better for them makes things better for all women.

With trans people, their lives follow a very different trajectory. Trans issues and women's issues are not the same thing, and I actually think conflating trans issues with feminism does a disservice to both. However, some trans individuals have identified that it is much easier to push into women's spaces to fulfill their own need of feeling physically safe (for example) rather than trying to ask men, who don't get it, because they don't usually feel physically unsafe, to spend time and money making extra spaces for them (e.g. gender neutral toilets). And fuck the women who end up feeling physically unsafe because there is a person with a penis who is larger and physically stronger than them in their space.

@OlennasWimple yep I could be playing Devil's advocate, surely a debate is only interesting if your opinions are challenged?

Oh seriously, go and get ducked.

Debate by all means, we’re all delighted to debate but don’t do this ridiculous thing of “Am I sincere, or am ignoring facts for a laugh? Yoooouuu decide.”

And they can spend their time and energy lobbying for them, rather than lobbying to access women's spaces.

To be fair, we probably have to do it for them. Otherwise they will end up in women's spaces. Not necessarily right- just an observation.

*And they can spend their time and energy lobbying for them, rather than lobbying to access women's spaces.

To be fair, we probably have to do it for them. Otherwise they will end up in women's spaces. Not necessarily right- just an observation.*

I completely agree that a third trans space is the answer, but I really feel that until the discourse and narrative of the discussion changes, this won't be a possibility.

Part of the process for them is acceptance into women's spaces. At least, for many anyway. They don't want to be recognised as trans. The whole point for many is acceptance and validation as a woman. Their validation above our safety has been proven time and time again. This is all part of the process, it's been allowed. We gave them an inch and they took a mile.

This is why the whole narrative has to change. Stop applauding those that have the courage to stand proud and say 'I am a woman', congratulate those that recognise they are trans and are proud of themselves for who they are, continually challenge the view that gender is prioritised over sex and properly separate the two.

We have to go back to basics again. I hope it's not too late. That's why I think Peak is right, we will have to do this for them.

I think male-to-female trans people see this aggression as directed solely at them because they just never saw it when they were presenting as men. They don't get it because they have never actually experienced life as a woman.

This is really insightful - I completely agree

@peakpants 'I think third spaces and encouraging trans people to use them.'

I think male-to-female trans people see this aggression as directed solely at them because they just never saw it when they were presenting as men.

Well, yes. It's evident they carry male entitlement along with them when they transition.

I always say this: "Welcome to gender. What did you think it was? Gender is a social system where if you are female nobody gives a shit about your special inner identity. Enjoy!"

Peak we are agreeing sought these days.

So much

So also think we may need to 'help' get trans people third spaces.

I think we have to do it for women and transfolk all in one document.

I want dignity & respect for everyone. My motivation is women and girls, but I can use the research and voluntary hours I am willing to do on behalf of women to help transfolk too.

I avoided this topic for ages because I had fallen into the trap of believing that everyone protesting the changes was a bigot. There must be tons of people out there stuck in that same bubble and we will never reach them unless we are demonstrating that it is absolutely not the case. The only way to do that is to make women’s rights and trans rights part of the same conversation.

This is how we will engage Labour MPs.

Yes, it’s tiresome that this unpaid work is falling in the lap of women, AGAIN, but we between us we have the knowledge base, the brainpower and the motivation.

I’ve only just picked up the baton, so I would really appreciate the expertise of all of you that have been working at this for ages already.
You must be bloody exhausted.

Please come critique where I have gotten to so far and help find the gaps:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3285204-The-New-Equality-Act-according-to-Betty-2018-what-do-yall-think

You must be bloody exhausted.

If I may be a name dropper, I was chatting to Julia Long last week, (well I did say I was going to name drop), and she was absolutely fed up. Those women have been at the fore front of this for years.

So yes, it needs a wider fronting up from more and more women.

Keep it up. If you are lurking in the background do something, now is the time. Just keep it civil. As in civil disobedience

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience.

Italian

I just think it is the only realistic option. The problem is that everyone is being let down by the current system. Trans people are not being recognised as a unique group of people- they are simply asked to blend in with their preferred sex. And women are not being recognised as having unique needs that sometimes conflict with trans people's needs. Pretending that there are just two categories- male and female actually ignores the specific issues facing transgender and non-binary people.

I often see people saying in an exasperated tone that trans women should just accept they are men and celebrate being effeminate men. That won't happen. The very core of their identity is that they do not view themselves as being men and they would not accept that as a solution. I can understand why feminists think 'why is it our job to sort out trans rights?'. I totally see that. The problem is that if we only focus on excluding trans people from our spaces, we will probably lose the fight because trans women will not accept being in male spaces.

There is no doubt a lack of insight/empathy at play for trans people. They don't see themselves as a threat, they only view the threat they perceive as coming from others. It's very very hard to see yourself as a potential aggressor and to understand why others might not welcome you in their space, because it conflicts with how you view yourself. Therefore, for trans people, women saying they cannot come into their spaces simply looks like yet more prejudice. They don't feel a sense of belonging with male spaces and male people and now the space where they would feel more comfortable is also hostile to them. I can see that there must be a sense of feeling that you have nowhere to go and to feel anger that you cannot access the female space.

But ultimately, I think trans people would probably benefit infinitely from having more specific provision. At the end of the day, they do not have the same experiences or issues as natal women and pretending that they do isn't helpful. If there is a third category, a non-binary category, it might also encourage some trans people to reject the gender binary altogether and take more pride in who they are as either trans women or trans men. It might not be the perfect solution, but I do think it's better than what we have now. As a natal woman, I would be happy to use unisex facilities in many situations (provided they offered me privacy). If other members of either sex also were prepared to do this and 'lead the way', there might also be less of a sense that trans people are being 'othered'. At the same time obviously, there would continue to be single-sex services for natal men and natal women.

Who knows? At the moment, I think both women and trans people are being failed.

I think you make some very valid points Peak, but in reality are we really back to toilets again? Because the practicalities of having three changing rooms, three lots of hospital wards, three sets of prisons, three types of refuges is one hell of an ask. Disabled facilities can be provided, on the whole, within what is already there, a whole new third space is much more impractical. I agree that may become a legal requirement in new buildings but that's not going to cut it right now.

And how will the argument be framed for a non- binary space? It will have to involve acceptance that a trans person is not a woman and that's not good enough for many. Being able to use the space and be validated is prioritised over the feeling of discomfort at best and worry of assault at worst. Because of the way the argument is currently framed, they want women's spaces, not their own.