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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you back self ID if...

999 replies

daimbars · 19/06/2018 15:08

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

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spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 20:37

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spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 20:39

PeakPants So you think it's ok for a girl who is with the Guides to have to share intimate spaces with boys? Ok, at least we know now.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 20:39

The good thing is, we can strategise however we like, because we aren’t a political party. More than one prong to an approach is surely a good thing?

I would never tell anyone who to prioritise or how to campaign, I’ve just presented an option for critique (which is why I named the thread ‘equality act according to Betty’).

I ask only one thing of women who want to campaign only for women - to check over my proposals to ensure there is no conflicting interest. If you can find a spot that weakens protections for women, I need to know, so I can make changes.

There is no compulsion to do things in any particular manner, I don’t police how other women speak or believe that I know best. I’m just throwing a different option into the ring.

I just need you to tell me if the end point isn’t compatible, because i want what you want, preserved rights for women and girls.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 22/06/2018 20:42

it just continues at school because rather than tackling the boys' behaviour, people label it as 'boys will be boys'

It's tricky. For example a parent I know is disturbed that his son has started behaving like a little prick because his mate's do. The school challenges it, the dad challenges it, but they can't change the parents/the home environment of the other boys.

Until all the parents are on board and capable of countering cultural misogyny/male dominance, then girls will need respite. And think about it - how many parents are having troubled marriages/bereavement/depression/working all hours, etc, which makes it impossible to be attentive enough to counter it (and not just be relieved that they are playing violent misogynistic computer games upstairs) while they keep it together by the skin of their teeth?

I bet the parents who seek out all those progressive gender neutral schools are the most financially/socially privileged in Sweden.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 20:43

There are certain ethnicities in which people can be very convincing when presenting as the opposite sex. British males, generally speaking, do not. They may think they pass because no one's said anything, but typically people are just trying to be kind to someone they regard as vulnerable and disturbed.

Thing is, even this is generally a result of the people doing the looking and being convinced not being very familiar with people of that ethnicity. You'll generally find that other people of the same ethnicity have no problem at all correctly perceiving the person's sex. So the rule that humans are really very good at perceiving sex still applies.

There is no doubt a lack of insight/empathy at play for trans people. They don't see themselves as a threat, they only view the threat they perceive as coming from others. It's very very hard to see yourself as a potential aggressor and to understand why others might not welcome you in their space, because it conflicts with how you view yourself. Therefore, for trans people, women saying they cannot come into their spaces simply looks like yet more prejudice. They don't feel a sense of belonging with male spaces and male people and now the space where they would feel more comfortable is also hostile to them. I can see that there must be a sense of feeling that you have nowhere to go and to feel anger that you cannot access the female space.

I mean, bluntly? Too bad. It's not women's responsibility to manage other people's feelings for them, and we are absolutely entitled to resent the fact that the people in question are refusing to give our concerns any weight at all while at the same time insisting that we pretend they're indistinguishable from us. Trans people who are willing to concede that distinction we can potentially work with, but if they're not then we're being put in a position where we have to work against them. That's not our fault, and the situation won't be resolved until they stop putting us in that position.

Thanks to Snappity for coming along and demonstrating what I mean when I say that some people we can't work with. There's no way to create a workable compromise with someone whose basic position is "do what I say".

PermissionToSpeakSir · 22/06/2018 20:52

Also WRT prisons/hospitals/etc - why do people with body disphoria get better treatment than people with other disorders/illnesses/disabilities? Why does a male with silicone implants get priority over a male will excessive tattoos/other body morphications?

Why is this disorder so special?

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 21:00

I don't think single sex education is great for instance

Single sex education has been shown to be beneficial for girls (and not for boys). We can argue till the cows come home about how that should not be the case and girls should not be disadvantaged in mixed sex educational environments, but if I had a daughter I'd be tempted to send her to a single sex school for secondary just because the women I know who went that route had such better academic experiences.

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:05

So you think it's ok for a girl who is with the Guides to have to share intimate spaces with boys? Ok, at least we know now.

Huh? No, where did I say that? Do girls in the Scouts automatically have to share intimate spaces with boys? Do kids on PGL holidays have to share intimate spaces with members of the opposite sex? FFS.

BettyDuMonde · 22/06/2018 21:06

permission as an extensively tattooed person, I don’t see the comparison?

My tattoos were a choice made with informed consent. I don’t know how it feels to suffer from dysphoria, but I’m willing to accept that it’s debilitating.
Having tattoos (I have an almost complete body suit, collected over 20 years) has been an immense privilege. I certainly don’t think I should have any protections in law because of it, because it isn’t a medical or mental health condition.

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:07

I bet the parents who seek out all those progressive gender neutral schools are the most financially/socially privileged in Sweden.

I am talking normal state schools here. We don't have the horrendous class system and the prevalence of private education that exists in the UK.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:08

PeakPants Explain to me how, with self ID a girl would be able to complain about a boy in intimate spaces. Also, we have had a few threads where a leader has kept us all up to speed on GG policy - they are inclusive. I take it you missed all of those?

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:12

I am talking about the notion of girl guides itself as an all-girls organisation, not the current policy. Self-ID has no impact on children because they can't get GRCs. They self-ID now and will do so even if the law changes. Can girls complain now? I thought the point was they couldn't and that is why it has caused uproar. That won't change if the law relating to obtaining a GRC changes- self-ID is already here.

FYI I think girls and boys should be separated according to biological sex for sleeping arrangements. I in no way endorse the GG policy.

Artemis7 · 22/06/2018 21:15

‘aside from the 'privacy, dignity, safety' considerations, until women have achieved genuine equality with men, women-only projects and facilities are vital for giving women respite from male domination, challenging internalised misogyny and self-doubt and unleashing frustrated female potential.’

Exactly.

Those that are happy to be around males 24/7 and choose to do so, are welcome to continue to do so. It is when they start to insist that we all should be forced to be around them 24/7 that the problem starts. Women want respite from males for many reasons, and should be entitled to it, we shouldn’t have to continually justify why we want it. Those that are trying to convince us that males have already won so we should just give up, have vastly underestimated our resolve, determination and tenacity. I would turn it around and say it is them that should give up trying to persuade us to stop fighting for what we want and need.

Sciencelogic · 22/06/2018 21:16

Peakpants
Do girls in the Scouts automatically have to share intimate spaces with boys
No they don't, if there is an issue. people/parents are informed as part of safe guarding.
GGUK stated people/parents are not to be informed.
That is the problem.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:16

PeakPants I am beginning to think you are being obtuse just for the sake of it.

In GG boys who present as girls are allowed on trips and overnights and the girls parents cannot be told. GG have said they do take safeguarding seriously but a boy presenting as a girls as far as GG is concerned is a girl. I think it might have something to do with the name Girl Guides.

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:22

Science I agree the GG policy is wrong. I don't think there should be unisex sleeping arrangements. I think the Scouts show that you can keep kids safe while at the same time allowing both sexes to join a club.

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:24

I am beginning to think you are being obtuse just for the sake of it.

This is not about girl guides or safeguarding- I agree their policy is bad. I used GG as an example of a single sex group which does not allow boys to join. I am not sure that is justified. You can keep kids safe and allow both sexes to take part in a club.

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:26

a single sex group which does not allow boys to join

Before you say it, I know they now let boys who identify as girls join. But the issue would not arise if they didn't have a ban on boys joining in the first place, without stipulating that they need to identify as girls. I am not sure young children need single sex organisations but I know others feel differently, including about single sex education.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:27

You can keep kids safe and allow both sexes to take part in a club.

Yes you can when your organisation is set up and able to cope with it. It won't work when the whole inclusiveness mantra is foisted onto groups. Kids safety comes above feelz and I don't care what anyone says differently.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 21:28

Girl guides were female only

Scouts decided to have both sexes

Just because one organisation does something doesnt mean another random on has to do the same

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:28

But the issue would not arise if they didn't have a ban on boys joining in the first place

Oh I see, so we shouldn't allow girls to have their groups and boys to have theirs, just to appease the trans lobby? Gotcha. #weseeyou

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 21:29

That should be random ONE obviously

PeakPants · 22/06/2018 21:30

To be fair, GG would be able to cope with it if they just changed their guidance to say that boys who identify as girls would never be allowed to share a tent with the rest of the girls on overnight trips. That way parents would be reassured that their kids are kept safe.

Baroquehavoc · 22/06/2018 21:30

Trans children joining the guides would want to be treated like girls and be in the girls sleeping area regardless of whether guides admitted boys or not. The single sex status of the guides is irrelevant.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:31

PeakPants I'm done with you. You don't care about kids safety just like you don't care about women. #weseeyou

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