Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

I'm aware I don't have to. I just don't know why you've assigned yourself as the one to teach us all the other side of the argument when you're not being straight to whether or not you actually believe it yourself. It isn't your job to derail the posts in order to make grown adult women 'think'. If you genuinely thought the things you said it would be one thing, but it's another when you say your playing Devils advocate and very condescending.

Everybody thinks so. We should give you a title, Guardian of Knowledge or something.

It's green eggs and ham, MassivelyOuting, at least kind of.

Oooh im liking the idea of a title

Guardian of banal comments

Thats got a ring to it

Ok I'm a pedant. Unisex to me is a buggeration of what should mean one sex. I can't stand the word because of that.

the keeper of the flame

@SpartacusAutisticus '...toilets are already gender-neutral, they're just not sex-neutral. I don't care what gender the female people I share toilets with are, I only care what sex they are.' Yes, you are right of course.

I do prefer the word unisex 'designed to be suitable for both sexes' but in today's non-binary and etc where people may not even acknowledge they have a sexed body, it is hard to know. I do genuinely mean a place that any one could use.

We need a universal symbol for anyone can pee here! Maybe it could be just a big pea! But I don't want to do away with spaces for males or females.

spartacus has just summed up my life

Now im depressed

Ha!

I reckon I will copy and paste my odyssey post into a new thread ‘The Updated Equality Act according to Betty 2018’.

My efforts appear to have been wasted on Daim!

And we are back talking about toilets again! It's so annoying, there are so many other areas of this..
the pay gap between males and females and recording it accurately
the crime stats and indeed all stats that record people's sex
choices when you go to see a health care professional
sports, fairness in competition and safety
prisons
refuges
hostels for vulnerable people
hospital wards
rooms in care homes and staff in care homes

Why does it always boil down to loos. I think because going to the loo seems so trivial people will get bored with this.

Yet in some parts of the world not having a safe place to go to the loo could end your education (along with getting your periods) if you are a girl.

www.toilettwinning.org/sanitation-crisis/

It's a serious issue, but toilets are not the only issue, they are the tip of a big iceberg.

I just don't know why you've assigned yourself as the one to teach us all the other side of the argument when you're not being straight to whether or not you actually believe it yourself. It isn't your job to derail the posts in order to make grown adult women 'think'. If you genuinely thought the things you said it would be one thing, but it's another when you say your playing Devils advocate and very condescending.

I agree. It's like when a non-transperson tries to speak on behalf of all transpeople. Or a non-woman tries to speak on behalf of all woman.

Mansplaining/Transplaining it's all bullshit.

Not on a train, not in the rain.

I believe the toilet thing has been a deliberate distraction technique set up by US campaigners (pretty much all Trans rights discussions in the US are currently summed up as ‘bathroom bills’) because it’s a relatively small topic that most ordinary folk won’t object to, especially as ‘it’s what’s been happening in practise for years already’. By keeping the debate restricted to this thin end of a metaphorical wedge, bathroom bills were likely to pass, and then other, bigger concessions would have snuck through on the same bill without anyone noticing.

Trump scuppered it, possibly just to spite Obama, but if he hadn’t, it would be law to allow trans identifying children access to opposite sex toilets and locker rooms, and schools that failed to comply would lose their funding.

No

The toilets cul de sac is designed to bunch us all up down the end of a street that goes nowhere. It's very deliberately chosen as the weak spot because for so many years it has been the main place compromise has happened.
That compromise was with our consent of course, but, in a stunning revelation of the true nature of the [redacted] lobby group, that gentle compromise is now being co-opted to act as a doorstop so that said lobby group can inch round the open door and have access to all the other stuff.

I refuse to discuss toilet access, because this is not about where someone pees. This is about whether I and my daughters can be sure that we will have access to female HCP where necessary to us, spaces we designate for our sex for reasons of privacy and safety, whether other vulnerable women will be safe in prisons and shelters, and whether my child will be safe from an ideological movement that will lie to her to prop up their beliefs.

I will not waste pages and pages bending over backwards to delineate a compromise that has already occurred because this is what they do - they get you running round in circles discussing their preferences and other irrelevancies, while they wheel in a great big wooden horse with "Removing sex-based exemptions and protections" hiding inside it.

"massivelyouting 'But you (generic) have the right to ask for an hcp of a specific sex or not of a specific sex. That’s a legitimate exception under EA.'

Yes, we do. Currently.

In the famous case in the paper of a few months ago where a woman said that the nurse was not a female (after she had requested a female); that woman was made to feel like a transphob.

And I saw on a debating forum, not this one, where trans women and women very vilifying this woman for not believing the nurse was 'womanly enough'.

Would I have the confidence to ask for a female if it happened to me?

I sincerely hope so.

Would my 13 year old? At the moment I go with her for appointments but in a few years I won't. Will she, soaked in the internet of identify everything', feel confident to ask for a female?

Plus the hospital apologized - the nurse was employed as a male nurse - if the nurse had been employed as a female what would the reaction have been? I genuinely do not know.

'...they get you running round in circles discussing their preferences and other irrelevancies, while they wheel in a great big wooden horse with "Removing sex-based exemptions and protections" hiding inside it.'

Yes, this.

@massivelyouting you do not need to answer but can you say roughly how old your kids are, are they all girls?

My dd is a teenager and I brought her up to be very assertive and a feminist, actually she has done a lot of it on her own (her ideas I mean). But young girls are so caught up in the ideas of gender. They do actually tell you that people can change sex! They are reading all kinds of things on the internet and it is not as easy as take away their phone!