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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you back self ID if...

999 replies

daimbars · 19/06/2018 15:08

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

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Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:28

"That's not what it's about. A male will never have experience of being female, so should not be entrusted to represent and champion female people's concerns as a women's officer, or to present a female perspective on a panel."

Do you therefore object to Miranda Yardley speaking on behalf of women?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/06/2018 10:31

Is miranda representing females on a panel or a woman's officer?

leyat · 20/06/2018 10:31

Miranda has never spoke on behalf of women. Miranda speaks as a transsexual and gives their own opinion.

TerfsUp · 20/06/2018 10:32

According to Wikipedia

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information. There are certain topics for which it is objective - for example, what year the film Casablanca was made or which country won the World Cup in 1986 - but for other topics it is totally subjective and therefore unreliable.

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:33

@Dragoncake 'Ideally, I would protect gender expression by law and do away with the legal fiction of GRC. And strengthen single sex provision.'

Yes, me too. I would be open to keeping the GRC but only if we strengthen who can get it, so anyone who has a conviction for violence against women, including sexual assault, would not get it! That's a suggestion, not sure 100% about even keeping it now.

Things change. 5 years ago I was totally on boards with all the trans 'rights', last few years felt concern these were leading to abuses, in terms of actual abuse and also misrepresentation of women.

All the attention and males shouting 'I am a woman' left right and centre has made me realise being female is not a club I can grant entry to, it's a biological reality and I don't have the keys to it for anyone.

So I should not be expected to act in law as if I do have the keys, as if I can 'let people in'. Whether I believe someone is female or not, it doesn't change reality. It's like religion, and I believe in some religions, but I cannot make them real' for everyone.

I can just argue for protection for everyone around their 'beliefs' but not that this should mean they can challenge reality.

' It should not be legal to get a passport, driving license or access female provision without one.' Agree.

Also, I would make sure that dysphoric people have access to MH support. Dysphoric trans people note that MH support had been decimated thanks to 'trans is not an illness' style campaigning.'

Yes, yes, yes. Thanks

PeakPants · 20/06/2018 10:34

And flourella, FWIW I don't think genuine dysphoria itself is a load of BS either. I think some people genuinely have it- otherwise why would they alter their bodies in the way they do? I just think that for the feminist project, we shouldn't be concerning ourselves with who has genuine dysphoria and who does not, because the protections we seek are based on biology, not what is in someone's mind.

Flowers again.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TerfsUp · 20/06/2018 10:35

Miranda has never spoke on behalf of women. Miranda speaks as a transsexual and gives their own opinion.

Good point.

Norther · 20/06/2018 10:36

No self-id under any circumstances.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 10:38

daim -listen to Jean Hatchett talking on the Cornwall meetingrecordings about this case by case justification trope. How do you perform a case by case justification with a violent man banging on the door of a refuge?

Cascade220 · 20/06/2018 10:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:40

@MyRelationshipIsWeird 'I certainly thing that if you want to present as a man you should have a hysterectomy - these stories of “pregnant men” who are in fact females with their uterus etc intact but just with a beard are exactly the type of ‘have your cake and eat it’ people who are making this whole thing such a mess. '

Most adults know a man cannot have a baby or change sex. Sadly young teens do not realise this and some do genuinely think it is possible to change sex and for males to have a baby! (Yes, really, some do).

However, IMHO, it is a waste of time to suggest surgery like hysterectomies should be made a requirement for trans men, and actually I find it really unkind and cruel. Knowing young women with Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria I find it wholly unacceptable anyone would advocate for women (or anyone) to be made to have surgery.

I used to think we and should advocate for surgery but really it doesn't change anything apart from a bit of the body.

Women who have had hysterectomies for medical reasons, or whose wombs no longer 'work' (like mine) are not magically male.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 10:41

What a bizarre question about Miranda.

Miranda does a sterling job of talking TO and WITH women because he gets it, he has LISTENED TO women.

Try ii sometime.

leyat · 20/06/2018 10:41

PeakPants the GRC allows them to change their birth certificate, which actually makes it much more difficult to delineate rights along the lines of sex, for eg one thing I have realised is that once a trans person has a GRC/changed birth certificate, it means the onus on them to speak up to being trans/acting in light of being trans where strict sex segregation is in place, and from what I have seen of TA's I hardly trust them to do that..... And as I say it also allows fetishists access to women and girls wherever trans people with a GRC end up procuring access to female only spaces/places etc. We really need to tackle the idea that you can change sex as well as make the EA fit for purpose....

Baroquehavoc · 20/06/2018 10:41

Nobody should be able to identify into a protected characteristic.

This

Picassospaintbrush · 20/06/2018 10:43

Nobody should be able to identify into a protected characteristic

Absolutely this.

Kettlepotblackagain · 20/06/2018 10:43

Nobody should be able to identify into a protected characteristic.

Exactly

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:46

@PeakPants I've read loads of your comments and wanted to answer them! It looks like I am hounding you but I am not! I think some of what you say makes sense but I wanted to address the things you say that I do not agree with. Please do feel free to ignore me!

'How about if it was reformed to put a positive obligation on organisations to at least do a risk assessment to see whether any proposed measures may have an adverse impact on those of a particular biological sex? How about if proper guidance was drafted in order to assist organisations with their duties.'

I think a lot of organisatins are trying to make money, some providing a service are trying to save money. None have time for this type of 'navel gazing', no matter how well intentioned.

'The way the debate is going now, it looks like 'oooh, people are being mean to trans people- I had better clarify that trans people are definitely welcome at my swimming pool etc'.'

Actually, I don't think so. Honestly, I think organisations are afraid of being sued, or getting bad publicity. They are scared not caring. Sorry if that sounds cynical! If they were caring, why would they not care about women and girls?

'It might make you feel good to point out that trans people have AGP on twitter, but it will alienate people that you want as your allies.' I've never done this nor do I know anyone who does this! My transexual friend is always talking about AGP and how bad they are and I stick up for them! (Yes, I know that was not directed at me but I think you may find a lot of 'us' (here) don't have time to be on Twitter talking about AGP).

'I personally think it is more palatable and acceptable to frame the debate as 'we respect and value trans people and their rights and we will respect their choices.'

I do, as long as those choices do not impact negatively on women and girls.

'If they want to self-ID, that should not be cumbersome or humiliating for them.'

I don't agree getting a GRC is cumbersome, and I'm increasingly thinking we should do away with it and strengthen protections for any 'gender' presentations. Self Id is not a good idea for anyone at all. It devalues what being trans or female is and muddies the waters.

'However, there remains a small category of situations where biological sex must be the determining factor and all we are seeking is to retain those'.''' How are you going to know who is which sex? Will people submit to a DNA test, I would happily do so to get a card saying 'I am a female'. But I know some will not want to do thath. Or could people just present their passport...oh wait....

'But what is there that JF can do with GRC that she cannot currently do? I struggle to think of anything.' Get a female passport....

' and even if the process is changed, I don't think most trans people will bother.' Then why are they campaging for self id?

Honestly, either it is worth having or not.

If it is not worth having then why want it.

You know those old cartoons where the prospecter convinces the landowever there is no oil, or diamonds or gold or whatever on that bit of land and it is usefless anyway but hey I'll take it off your hands for a few bucks, and kerching! I'm syspicious, and although you seem very nice peak I am suspcicous of anyone who wants 'us' (society) to make a law that says any male who identifies as female is one. For like a 100 reasons. Actually 3.5 billion reasons.

'Biological sex is biological sex regardless of a GRC. I don't think someone who has lived as a woman for 2 years and has gender dysphoria (ie satisfying current rules) should be in a DV refuge or a female prison (possibly unless they have had surgery to remove their penis). So to me, it makes little difference whether it was hard or easy for them to get their certificate- it is their biological sex that excludes them.' I agree with you! But how you gonna prove you can exclude anyone?

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:47

@Alltheprettyseahorses and @Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar daimbars answered that a page or two back. I don't necessarily agree with daimbars but they have addressed it.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 20/06/2018 10:49

Do you understand the difference between speaking in defence of, and speaking on behalf of, Wakame?

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:51

@flourella hope you feel better too.

BarrackerBarmer · 20/06/2018 10:51

Oh, look, my post was deleted.

I have no clue how I broke talk guidelines.

No email either.

I guess that's one life gone.

TerfsUp · 20/06/2018 10:56

Nobody should be able to identify into a protected characteristic.

Beautifully put.

Wakame · 20/06/2018 10:58

"Do you understand the difference between speaking in defence of, and speaking on behalf of, Wakame?"

Yes. Do you?

Italiangreyhound · 20/06/2018 10:59

@daimbars 'I didn't think there was any threat to the Equality Act exemptions - if there was I would be all over it.' If our rights are given to us by society, by men saying OK we will stay out of those spaces out of respect for you then there is always a risk that 'respect' will disappear and those laws could be changed.

There is an event today to discuss other aspects of the Equalities act.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/campaign-launch-why-its-time-to-review-the-equality-act-tickets-46472191576

There is thread about it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3278207-Campaign-Launch-Why-its-time-to-review-the-Equality-Act-60-tickets-left

I don't think they will discuss sex verses gender but who knows.

Must go to work!

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