Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

Its not just female prisons and DV shelters.

Within homeless provision, vulnerable women are at risk if self-id laws are imposed on services:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266198-No-True-Transwoman-transadvocates-question-whether-TW-is-genuine-after-said-TW-sexually-harasses-women-in-homeless-shelter

discussed yesterday:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3282596-Ministry-of-Justice-being-sued-by-a-transwoman?

I would include homeless shelters in female spaces too. I think there should be an effort made to provide third spaces where possible, to address the fact that trans women may be attacked in male spaces. However, yes, there should be single sex provision in homeless shelters too.

I'd go further and abolish the whole GRC system altogether. Men cannot become women.

So would I. It's ridiculous and it's just caused all these "unintended" consequences.

Why is 'living as a woman' seen as intrinsically humiliating? Is this that sissy porn crap? We're not lesser creatures compared to men.

It's not just about single spaces its about the ability of workers in homeless services being hampered by legislation in making important decisions based on their experience and knowledge.

The thread includes specific examples of how this has happened. A woman died.

As as far as I'm aware once a person has a GRC they are legally considered female bar a few Equality Act exemptions.

That's my issue, women and girls are only allowed 'a few' exemptions, everywhere else is mixed sex.

Pushing for women to be consulted in any change to a law which affects them is something concrete to fight for and will likely get a lot of backing. I'm surprised I haven't seen more suggestions along these lines. Indeed there’s a petition started by the ManFriday chaps which you’d be welcome to sign. Will try to find the link.

@Picassospaintbrush apologies if I've missed it but do you have a link to a campaign or petition where women are pushing to keep existing EA exemptions? That's something I'll happily sign and share.

Here you go. For anyone who thinks that women should have a voice in this discussion, please sign this petition

PeakPants Sorry, it doesn't mean anything in that context. I have said on this thread that I don't believe men can be women and that they don't belong in women's spaces, sports or on shortlists, etc. Whatever certificates they have. And that those certificates are bullshit and shouldn't exist. I don't think birth certificates should be changed, or passports etc issued with the "new" sex. Because no one has ever changed sex. Full stop.

I don't know why I wrote that sentence; I'm not well at the moment and unfortunately that has coincided with me feeling like posting things online. Maybe I should just leave it if I can't properly say what I want to.

flourella hope you feel better . I agree with you about it not being possible to change sex.

If the GRC is made to mean relatively little (like it does in Ireland), they can have their GRCs. The problem is that when you insist on very rigorous tests to get a GRC you are holding it out as having some real value and significance and in some cases I don’t think even the most dysphoric of male bodies should be in female spaces.

@JoyTheUnicorn 'I'll talk for myself before I let someone who has been brought up and socialised as a man speak for me.'

'And I completely forgot to mention Jane Fae's creepy love of porn, which should be enough to make every female person wary.'

So true. Can you link to anything about Jane Fae and porn as I hear this a lot and I don't know all the facts. When Fae is invited onto a programme to talk about being a woman I wonder if the programme knows about this history.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Here is the link mentioned by MyRelationship

Thanks @MyRelationshipIsWeird - re the Government response:

The Government will not change the Equality Act 2010 provisions which support organisations to run single sex services.

Which is what I thought. I didn't think there was any threat to the Equality Act exemptions - if there was I would be all over it.

Self ID is being challenged with good reason, because it gives fetishists the same rights as people with dysphoria, and because the Equality Act is currently not fit for purpose this means that if self ID comes in, allowing anyone to change their sex on their birth certificate & thus maximum access to women and girls, has enormous potential for the further erosion of our rights and safety.

But it's also the principle itself that is dangerous. It's because of the principle of self ID that we are seeing self ID increasingly being the practice of organisations/businesses/authorities etc in terms of how they approach trans inclusion, this is the practice that is currently taking places from women and placing women and girls in danger. So it's the whole principle of self ID that needs addressed. Whatever access men end up having to female only spaces, it shouldn't include fetishists at all, it should only be those who have dysphoria/a psychological condition where their inclusion is largely due to distress that'd be caused by having to take the option based on their sex.

Yes the govt should amend the EA to ensure that the sex based rights of women and girls are upheld (which the current EA does not do), this is absolutely necessary now to ensure our equality whatever happens with the GRA. But neither the Scottish govt nor the UK govt has proposed to do that, and in fact the UK govt has said it doesn't plan on re-opening the EA at all (the Scottish govt will seek amendments). So we have to fight on the basis that we want the EA updated and that self ID cannot come in until it is and that self ID is a problem because it removes dysphoria from the equation and in doing so places women and girls in increased danger and a frankly unacceptable situation (but for where I am - Scotland - the focus is on the EA because we know self ID is coming...).

Re consulting with women, our campaign group is working on demands that will ask for such consultation and demonstrate why it is necessary, we are also planning on carrying out our own impact assessments, one is underway, and we may crowdfund for a poll (10-12 qns would cost £4000 incl VAT with Panelbase) in order to poll women specifically to be able to show how women largely reject what is happening both to us and to girls and issues with our exclusion etc.

Basically we are trying to show issues with the schools guidance, the current EA and the GRA proposals. It's a lot of work but we have done quite a bit and we are planning on getting a lot done over the next two months. If Scotland's women's orgs hadn't thrown our class under the bus we wouldn't be having to do all this, but they have refused to carry out any research on the impact of all this, and they have refused to consult with women, they have refused to dialogue with women or women's campaign groups raising concerns, and they have refused to ask the govt to carry out consultations and assessments, even though they acknowledge the govt has done neither. Engender are at the forefront of this refusal to engage, even refusing to hold an event for women to discuss this (no women's org has, Engender was meant to but when feminists started organising to attend they cancelled it citing 'scheduling conflicts' - yeah right...). We plan on highlighting how Engender has failed in its remit in the work we do, we just cannot leave it ignored, they have utterly failed women and girls. But we won't.

Yep, happy with that:

The Government does not intend to change the safeguarding processes that are currently used in refuges and healthcare services. Providers of women-only services can continue to provide services in a different way, or even not provide services to trans individuals, provided it is objectively justified on a case-by-case basis. The same can be said about toilets, changing rooms or single sex activities. Providers may exclude trans people from facilities of the sex they identify with, provided it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim.

'genuine dysphoria'....what a load of BS

Why is ‘living as a woman’ seen as intrinsically humiliating?
That’s just op’s rather nonsensical take on it. These are men fighting for the right to be seen as women, not having it forced on them; they couldn’t possibly be trying to claim this puts them in a humiliating position, could they?
I nearly stopped reading at that point, but if I had I’d have missed the further entertaining notion that men claiming to be women also suffer the horror that is PMS...

@daimbars '...very keen to have this discussion too! I am all for keeping and strengthening the current Equality Act exemptions. It's easy to campaign for this without arguing the toss over whether a trans woman is a real woman .'

But surely whether trans women really are women is key, because some trans women are arguing they are women, and have always been women. Whether they have surgery or take medication or not. And some people are arguing that whatever a male does will not make them a female ever. And woman is an adult human female.

And we want laws to protect all females, women and girls, not all people who identify as women. personally I also want laws to protect all trans people, in fact any gender non conforming person, in fact any person. I know a lot of other people want that too.

But arguing that the equality act protects women and girls when schools are using a 'toolbox' that advocates boys using the girls' toilets if the 'identify' as girls means that who is, or is not, a real women or girl is kind of crucial!

@MyRelationshipIsWeird interesting points. I agree with a lot. But in my view trans men should not have to undergo any surgery. I don't care if they have breasts or not.

They are not male and will most likely not benefit from any male privilege unless they can convince people they are male, (e.g. surgery and hormones) so the choice should be with them.

If males want trans men to have to undergo surgery, then they should campaign for that, they won't, they most likely don't give a toss.

But I don't think women should campaign or agitate for other females to have to have surgery or take hormones.

In that vein, I guess I don't think males should need to do this either, they should not have access to women only places regardless of surgery or hormones. How can we ever know if anyone continues to take hormones and for me forcing surgery (unnecessary in my view, if undesired) on anyone is not morally right or beneficial to the person or to our health service.

@daimbars 'Pushing for women to be consulted in any change to a law which affects them is something concrete to fight for and will likely get a lot of backing. I'm surprised I haven't seen more suggestions along these lines.'

By all means fight for this.

You could promote this petition to your friends for a start, if you have not already.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

daim but the EA needs to be strengthened to put a duty on service providers to consider biological sex. At the moment, it is too weak as it just gives them an exemption if they want to.

The fact that so few trans people have GRCs means that self-ID already effectively exists. You may see an exponential rise in GRCs if it comes in. I personally doubt it because they have everything they want/need already in terms of being able to get a female ID and being able to use women's spaces. Why bother with a certificate that nobody will ask to see anyway?

If the EA is strengthened to place an obligation on service providers to consider biological sex when providing their services, the GRC will come to mean relatively little. Yeah, you can self-ID to get it, but it doesn't give you access to female spaces- sorry.

Thread discussing the Government's response to the petition:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition?

I'll have to catch up the rest of the thread later, so sorry if this has already been asked.

*daimbars

Yep @Fairenuff - at the moment a trans women is specifically instructed to live their life as a women (which means using single sex facilities as a woman) in order to obtain their GRC.

A trans women who feels born in the wrong body is likely to encounter people who perceive her to to perverted or threatening if she presents herself as a woman. It would be uncomfortable and humiliating to be perceived as a pervert when you are simply following instructions that you have to follow BY LAW in order to obtain your GRC.

Can you link to the law that says men have to use female facilities in order to gain a GRC?

peaches there evidently are people with such severe dysphoria about their sexed bodies that they will have parts of themselves amputated and render themselves infertile, and I think they deserve sympathy. I'd rather they were treated by psychiatrists rather than surgeons, as with people suffering from BIID (generally; I think there is at least one doctor who has amputated the healthy limbs of some people? Not sure though). There's no need to be mean to me after I've explained that I misspoke.

I'd go further and abolish the whole GRC system altogether. Men cannot become women.

Yes to this.

The exemptions don't only need updated, but there also needs to be an imperative in the EA to make sure that females have what we need to ensure our inclusion, safety and equality, not just the option to ensure it, which is what they EA offers. Because at the moment the exemptions are rarely ever used because using them opens up the possibility of legal challenge as well as bad press, whereas refusing to use them opens up no such option in and of itself. The EA allows the equality of women and girls to be impacted and for that impact to be invisible. No-one - absolutely no-one - who cares about women and girls/believes in equality would think this an acceptable situation.

If and when our equality is ever valued again, the result will be third spaces and places for trans people where sex segregation is necessary, anything less is not two groups with distinct protected characteristics being treated equally, it's trans supremacy.