Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

Just to clarify something from a prior post to keep all of our science straight: men DO secrete FSH and LH from their pituitary gland. It's just that the LH acts on the Leydig cells of the testes and FSH binds to receptors on the Sertoli cells of the testes. Both are needed for production/maintenance of sperm and testosterone.

Anyway, there is no way I could reiterate what @TheLocalYokel said any better, so I'm just reposting it if you missed it.

THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

Your suggestion hinges on the misconception that objection to self id is about excluding male people who are trans from womanhood as if it's an exclusive club.

That's not what it's about. A male will never have experience of being female, so should not be entrusted to represent and champion female people's concerns as a women's officer, or to present a female perspective on a panel. A male person who is trans is never going to have a female body, so should not be allowed to compete against females in sport.

Why can't you grasp this? It's not about what someone has to do before they can join the club. It's not a club. A male can not become female. There's no waiting period, no hoops to jump through, nothing to self declare.

It's not about excluding anyone from anything. It's just a biological fact.

@PeakPants Some good comments from you.

But... "AWS are about cultural aspects of womanhood rather than biological- they aim to address oppression rather than being based on a biological necessity (even if biology was the reason for oppression)." Why do you think AWS are not about biology? Especially when you say "...even if biology was the reason for oppression"?

@daimbars "I also think that transsexual women will eventually experience what it feels like to be a woman in a pretty much the same way we do."

How could that possibly be true?

"The hormones, surgery and female socialisation will allow this."

Hormones cannot change your experiences. "Apparently trans women even get PMS symptoms." How can you get sympton of PMS without a uterous?

Actually men can get 'symptoms' of pregnancy, it's called Couvade syndrome, also called sympathetic pregnancy. It still does't make the men pregnant, or female.

Sorry to be rude and miss out what has been posted but I just wanted to answer the OP's question.

Absolutely no way.

Haven't RTFT yet but this...

At the moment the process of getting a GRC is humiliating for a trans person (having to live as the opposite gender for two years)

If a person very much wants to "live as the opposite gender" anyway, and that is in fact their long term goal, then why would having to do so for 2 years be "humiliating"? Wouldn't they be doing it anyway? In which case the change you're proposing would simply extend the waiting period from 2 to 5 years, which doesn't seem like much of a win from the perspective of the person doing the waiting.

I was contemplating using that gem to kick off a new thread called:
Trans activists say the funniest things!

You know our answer is no. We've already said No. TRAs refusing to take no for an answer reiterates and radiates how very male their demand to be admitted as women is.

NO.

No is enough.
We do not have to propose alternatives
We do not have to run through endless ‘yes but would it be ok if...?’ Scenarios.

The word no is not the start of a negotiation. There is no negotiation here. The answer is no.

When a woman says no, she means no.

Anyone who takes a woman’s ‘no’ as the start point for a negotiation is a danger to women.

So, in answer to the OP - NO.

At the moment the process of getting a GRC is humiliating for a trans person (having to live as the opposite gender for two years)

The mind boggles. Apart from being completely unable to define in any objective way what it means to ‘live as a woman’ - *i thought that’s what they wanted? To be seen as a woman? How can it Possibly be humiliating? It’s totally contradictory.

Apparently trans women even get PMS symptoms.

No they don’t.

No.

No. Still not a costume for men to wear.

I think the way this thread has gone illustrates perfectly why it's a terrible idea.

You ask a question - on the face of it politely. Everyone says 'no'.

Do you respond, 'OK fair enough, just thought I'd ask.'? Do you hell.

It's very, very telling. But hey keep on digging if you want - the more people see it the better.

Ah lots of protests to the idea trans women can get PMS symptoms, it wasn't meant to offend and apologies to those who were.

From what I understand taking HRT whether you are a man or post menopausal woman induces the same effects as PMS such as headaches and mood swings. I was not suggesting trans women get raging period pains!

Why am I on here @Datun ? Same reason as you. I'm a feminist wanting to chat.

Also, I haven't seen any concrete proposals from women on here on how they plan to address the issue of self ID other than 'men can't change sex, they will never be women, just no'.

Surely it would be a more logical stance to outline why we should keep the existing GRC process, or campaign for a time lapse between receiving a trans women obtaining a GRC and getting equal rights rather than just repeating than men cannot become women. Because unfortunately by law they can.

I think we've all learned what we can from this thread

This wouldn't replace the current Equality Act exemptions, so it would still be legal to make certain sensitive job roles only open to natal women.

But if people are able to change the sex on their birth certificates, then how is it possible to limit anything to natal women? And if a woman is faced with a male in a towel the changing room at the gym, how is she meant to know whether this is someone mid-transition, post-transition or just taking the piss?

From what I understand taking HRT whether you are a man or post menopausal woman induces the same effects as PMS such as headaches and mood swings. I was not suggesting trans women get raging period pains!

1. The symptoms of PMS are linked to the menstrual cycle. Only women have a menstrual cycle.
2. The symptoms of PMS extend far beyond headaches and mood swings
3. Lots of things cause headaches and mood-swings.

Depression for example. Dehydration and hunger. Cancer treatments. Withdrawal from substances... the list is a long one.

You wouldn’t say being a bit hangry causes symptoms of PMS though. You’d say you were hungry and dehydrated, not that you were experiencing a condition that requires female biology. To insist that you are suffering from a specifically female condition when you do not have the biochemical or physical makeup to ever have that condition is irrational.

daim

When you know anything about the menopause I'll take you seriously

When you can answer a simple damn question I'll take you seriously

Until them....pfft

You know what? Living as a woman CAN be humiliating. The first time I bled through my pants at the age of 15, at school. The time I started leaking milk when hearing a baby cry while lecturing at a conference. Being asked by my boss why my face was blotchy after crying all night during my first miscarriage. Or, while we're at it, asking a stranger for a feminine hygiene product in a public bathroom during my second miscarriage. Seeing the man who tried to assault me smirk at his friends across a lecture hall when I walked in. I could go on...

Please. Do tell us more.

At the moment the process of getting a GRC is humiliating for a trans person (having to live as the opposite gender for two years

@daimbars loads of people have asked you why it's humiliating to have to live as a woman for 2 years when the ultimate objective is to live as a woman. As far as I'm aware you haven't responded, so please would you do so? Apologies if I've missed it.

I'm not sure. Probably no.
A year ago I would have thought it fine, simply because I would have been thinking of all those trans women who have been quietly using loos for years.
However, 'trans' now encompasses a lot more than the old school trans women who never gave anyone much trouble.
I have seen far too many newly 'out' trans women on Twitter or Reddit insist they have the right to women's spaces while also seemingly taking pleasure in sending abuse to women.
Anyone who thinks 'suck my dick' is an appropriate response to a woman disagreeing with them should never be in a space where girls and women are vulnerable.
We need to find a way to both protect genuine trans people, and women and girls, while not letting misogynist opportunists jump through loopholes. Unfortunately, the backlash against women talking is so huge at the moment, that I don't see a way past it unless that changes significantly.

George

Yup

When I fainted on a bus age 15 from period pain

Having a male doctor tell me at 17 that I had vaginismus when I'd never had sex

When a man in a club pinched my arse so hard it bruised

Being left at 20 laying on a bed with my bottom half uncovered while a doctor fannied (pardon the pun) around fetching something

Having 3 medical students marching in while I was attempting to push out an 8 pound baby (feet in stirrups)

Having a hot flush for the first time in a room full of children

And these are MILD, mild compared to many many women

OP what about the question that has been asked many times on this thread. Why is it humiliating to live as a woman if the person wants to live as a woman? Can you explain your reasoning there? Where is the logic?

Person: "I feel like I am a woman and I want to live the rest of my life as a woman"

Dr. "Ok. Well the first step is to live your life as a woman for two years"

Person: "What? Oh no, that's so humiliating"

Can you see why we're asking?

Quite. If you can't take a bit of humiliation best stay away from womanhood.

No is enough.
We do not have to propose alternatives
We do not have to run through endless ‘yes but would it be ok if...?’ Scenarios.

Hear hear.