Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

"No" is not the beginning of a negotiation, no matter how much some people might want it to be.

NO. Having learned about it, I can see that it rides roughshod over everybody else's privacy and dignity and denies them rights to be recognised by their sex. It also opens vulnerable people up to abuse which we really don't need more of in our society The whole concept is badly thought through, it is centred on the specific needs of a small group in society and it is riddled with unintended consequences.

No, not ever. The louder someone shouts and argues and trantrums that they should be allowed into women's spaces, or pants or bodies, the less they should be allowed.

And to add to all the above, things you don't expect and no one tells you because you are a woman.

Having your first period and thinking you are dying, because no one told you this was going to happen.

Having your first bath after your first child and losing a great lump of placenta, pulling the emergency cord while almost fainting from shock and fear. Only to be told it had been expected, but no one had thought to tell me. And then being put on medication to make me have contractions for three days just in case any more placenta was hiding.

Post menopausal, thinking I had got away with no hot flushes, and had gone through the process fairly painlessly. And then to wake up one morning my legs covered in eczema, the dryest, most painful, itchiest skin ever. Because hormones are the shittest thing when you are a woman. And no amount of moisturising, cleaning, pampering, helps, because hormones are the shittest thing for a certain sort of people.

So, no. When someone who is not like me, wants my spaces, wants to pretend they know about being a woman, well no.

@GeorgeFayne I know you did not post for either sympathy or empathy but I am so sorry for your experience.

@daimbars please answer the question about two year's being humiliating? I know there does appear to be no logical reason to why you would say that but you must have been thinking something.

Is this what daimbars is hoping will eventually happen if they just keep asking over and over again?

genius.com/Seuss-dr-green-eggs-and-ham-lyrics

Yep @Fairenuff - at the moment a trans women is specifically instructed to live their life as a women (which means using single sex facilities as a woman) in order to obtain their GRC.

This means at the very beginning of the reassignment process walking down the street wearing female clothes, using female toilets etc when their outward appearance is male. They may easily be mistaken for a cross dresser or a transvestite. I have learned on here that most people assume cross dressers have AGP.

A trans women who feels born in the wrong body is likely to encounter people who perceive her to to perverted or threatening if she presents herself as a woman. It would be uncomfortable and humiliating to be perceived as a pervert when you are simply following instructions that you have to follow BY LAW in order to obtain your GRC.

A decent trans woman would therefore likely wish for the hormones to take effect and for them to 'pass' as a women before they present themselves as a woman to the outside world.

I'm not opposed to self-id but obviously there are areas where the birth sex should be the defining factor such as sport.

@daimbars thank you for explaining.

I think there are trans women who never pass so getting used to that fact is important if you want to love your life as a trans woman.

I would imagine many some. Would not feel frightened to share a bus, cafe, shop etc with anyone makez female, trans or otherwise. So there are lots of social situations that should not make a trans person feel others are afraid etc.

live your life!

No. I will never support self-ID. Under any circumstances.

"AWS are about cultural aspects of womanhood rather than biological- they aim to address oppression rather than being based on a biological necessity (even if biology was the reason for oppression)." Why do you think AWS are not about biology? Especially when you say "...even if biology was the reason for oppression"?

Hi Italian. Just to clarify what I meant there. I think some sex-segregation is entirely based on biology for the reason of safety- such as prisons and sport. It exists because men and women have different bodies and in the case of prisons, it is because male bodies may harm female bodies and in the case of sport, it is because male bodies are stronger and faster than female bodies.

With AWS, the reason they exists is because culturally, men have oppressed women. There is nothing in female biology for instance that makes women unsuited to hold public office, yet in the past, that is what happened. Women were in a weaker position not because they were physically weaker, but because men said their physical difference made them intellectually inferior.

My point is that with AWS, you need a lot more thought than just 'include women'. In a prison, it doesn't matter if you're young, old, lesbian, bisexual, rich, poor, black or other minority group etc. You are in a female prison because you are a woman. With AWS, you can't just do that because there is a world of difference between the opportunities available to a white heterosexual woman who attends private school, goes to a top university, works in the city and then wants to enter politics. She is a woman, but she has many privileges, making her journey easier than people who are women, but are e.g. poor, state-educated, black, lesbian etc. An AWS which just requires that candidates are female doesn't do very much to improve diversity in a real sense.

Hope that is clearer.

daims
Are you really suggesting that trans women only wear 'female clothes and use female toilets' because they've been instructed to by law to get a GRC?

This is illogical.

On the Big Questions, Jane Fae was clear for example that she didn't have a GRC and had been using women's facilities for many years. The clothes she wore, I have no doubt, came from the women's section.

I won't support self ID.
Whilst there may be harmless transwomen who will never threaten women, there must be an understanding that they're still men, and as such there will be some who are a risk - as seen plenty of times.
Self ID may make a tiny proportion of the population feel more comfortable, but at the cost of overriding the boundaries and spaces of women. This isn't ok.
There are very good reasons why women need boundaries, need to be able to say no and be listened to, in fact isn't this what we try to teach our children from an early age?
I think the damage of asking humans to ignore their recognition of differences between males and females will be far reaching.

If Jane Fae doesn't have a GRC she will not be recognised as a women in law so could not apply for a job as a women, enter a women's only competition or be on a women only panel which is the subject of the OP.

And as per my previous post, trans women are supposed to live as women prior to getting a GRC which ironically enough operates on a method of self ID.

Jane Fae has announced publicly that they don't have a GRC and it makes no material difference to them.

Jane Fae has the protected status of transgender and is treated as a woman.

Its you that doesn't understand the current legislation, or how it works.

at the moment a trans women is specifically instructed to live their life as a women (which means using single sex facilities as a woman) in order to obtain their GRC.

You make it sound like they have to use single sex facilities to obtain a GRC?

If Jane Fae doesn't have a GRC she will not be recognised as a women in law so could not apply for a job as a women, enter a women's only competition or be on a women only panel which is the subject of the OP.
Do you really believe that? That without a GRC some people can't be doing those things? That say a Women's Officer in the Labour party would be a woman or hold a GRC?

If Jane Fae doesn't have a GRC she will not be recognised as a women in law so could not apply for a job as a women, enter a women's only competition or be on a women only panel which is the subject of the OP.

LM doesn't have a GRC though?? And they have a woman's post.

You know what’s really rather comical? That not so long ago I’d have been fine with this proposal, might even have queried why a 5 year wait was needed, because what was the harm?

If self ID supporters had only kept their heads while a small number of very clever women protested, most of us wouldn’t have even noticed. It was only because of their refusal to brook any questions and the insistence that Mumsnet - a site I’d used for years - was a cesspit of hate that I heard the shouting and wandered over. And I’m not the only one. Every day more people turn up to see what all the fuss is about. And stay.

And then this thread. Women say ‘no’. The op says ‘but why?’ ‘Convince me.’ Chip, chip, chip. I’ve seen some spectacular own goals in my time but this one is sublime.

"No" is not the beginning of a negotiation, no matter how much some people might want it to be.

This. And the 'living as a woman' term is really starting to piss me off the more it is said.

Its you that doesn't understand the current legislation, or how it works.

Yes, Upstart and that is why I don't understand the relentless focus on self-ID and how hard/easy it is to get a GRC rather than focusing on amending and enhancing the Equality Act provisions based on biological sex. I have been called a TRA for making that point and a troll, a man, a goady fucker and whatever else. Yet the fact that so few trans people have a GRC shows how useless it is and why the debate over the procedure for getting one is a waste of time. It is the fact that they have bio-sex segregation (ie what is in the EA) in Ireland that means that self-ID has not had a huge impact. Arguing the toss over whether a trans woman is a real woman is a waste of time imo.

Daim, using hormones doesn't make any one pass.

And organisations are not applying any GRC restrictions hence the legal action we taking against the Labour Party.

For someone who spends such a huge amount of time telling everybody else they are wrong you are remarkably ill informed.

Jane Fae doesn't have a GRC.
Jane Fae's woman-act consists of wearing women's clothes and knitting.
Jane Fae mansplains and interrupts women talking about their experiences of being a woman.
Jane Fae is hauled out to talk on behalf of women.
Is this not massively fucked up?
I'll talk for myself before I let someone who has been brought up and socialised as a man speak for me.