Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

I wonder if there’s a generational element to it.

I’m pretty sure all my peer group know that a transwoman is a biological male who identifies with femininity. I’m 31 and my friends are mainly in their 20s/30s.

If I asked my mum (60 yo), though, I imagine she’d say it’s a female person who wants to transition to male.

I agree it’s not ideal, but I can’t think of anything better.

The guidelines seem to be aimed at encouraging civil debate. I’m wondering whether this is actually achievable if we can only do it while obscuring the basic facts of the debate - or if the basic facts are in dispute (in an objective vs subjective reality way - not that I think there is merit to anti scientific arguments)

Maybe it’d be better to agree that any language can be used, and delete anyone arguing semantics or taking offence at terminology instead...

The inclusion of the word “woman” is to give credence to the idea that this is a sub-group of women. This is a really recent thing, anyone know when it started being used ? I feel very uncomfortable with using a word that suggests that male people can be women.

Transgender was coined in 1988 and brought into common usage through the 1990s. Transwoman was added to word of the year list Oxford Dictionary in 2013.

If I asked my mum (60 yo), though, I imagine she’d say it’s a female person who wants to transition to male

Why would you assume that? Do you think that being 60 and over is an impediment to keeping up with current events?

I’m pretty sure all my peer group know that a transwoman is a biological male who identifies with femininity. I’m 31 and my friends are mainly in their 20s/30s.

I really don't think so. Lots of people in that age group don't have any idea and tag the t on the end of lgb or mention 'people of all colours, sexualities and genders' in an automatic way without thinking about it.

When I try to talk about the issues most people, whatever their ages, are not on anyway interested and they think it is quirky and odd that I am.

There's a common kind of pity/disgust/avoid thing about the thought of people being confused about their sex - or about any other psychological/ physiological issues or impediments.

So in reality, you find a lot of ignorance behind the compliance and very few people have given much thought to what a 'transwoman' is - because it isn't relevant to them.

Calling a bloke a ‘she’ because he wears dresses, make up and ‘feels like a woman’ would be misgendering myself. I don’t adhere to gender norms and yet I know I am a woman so telling me I must call males women, takes away the word from me

I agree camel.
And even the butchest of the butch (sorry I hope I don't cause offence using that word) have a woman's energy and vibe about her even those calling themselves transmen
I don't know what causes that vibe - I am not trying to be hippyish or spiritual, but on an animal level you just know a woman's vibe, even if your eyes have been deceived.

Solidarity, sisters

And any rules that forces people to say things that they know aren't true are going to be gas lightening and distressing. On a feminist board, women ought be be able to say that someone male is male.

BeyondSceptical 'Woman run site, tells feminists to spend even more of their mental load on men than they do already...'

Perfect summary.

Lots of people in that age group don't have any idea and tag the t on the end of lgb or mention 'people of all colours, sexualities and genders' in an automatic way without thinking about it.

Recently people in the media have begun referring to LGBT people as though it is possible to be all those sexual orientations and identities at the same time.

Ha, I said that
I guess one could be a polygamous female, living with bob and jane - who's living as female on a Monday-Thursday with Jane, and living "in man mode" Friday to Sunday with Bob?

"Transgender was coined in 1988 and brought into common usage through the 1990s. Transwoman was added to word of the year list Oxford Dictionary in 2013."

Transgender originally excluded transsexuals - it was the term for everyone under the trans umbrella who are not transsexual. Because transsexuals had won rights, they were gradually co-opted into the transgender (now trans) umbrella by groups seeking to extend those rights to themselves.

Trans woman was a term in use from the late 20th century. Transwoman is a slur and I don't know when it first appeared but I will believe 2013 if you say so.

Thanks for that snappity, interesting that you call 'transwoman' a slur - I'll resist sending a "we told you so" to mnhq.

Do you have any advice for the disabled mners on the thread?

"Recently people in the media have begun referring to LGBT people as though it is possible to be all those sexual orientations and identities at the same time."

Most countries which criminalise same sex relationships also criminalise cross-dressing and gender variance. LGBT people are united in their struggles in many countries.

I think trying to get commenters deleted over whether or not they tapped the space key is my favorite "see what happens when you try to reason with unreasonable people?" example so far.

Thanks for that snappity, interesting that you call 'transwoman' a slur - I'll resist sending a "we told you so" to mnhq.

You know that many people on Mumsnet use it because they won't use trans woman. It is used as a slur.

Precisely Angry.

"I think trying to get commenters deleted over whether or not they tapped the space key is my favorite "see what happens when you try to reason with unreasonable people?" example so far."

Who has done that? I for one have never reported anyone for using transwoman. It's downright rude but for me it doesn't cross the threshold of something I would report unless there was further aggravation.

Nope, sorry, these rather sad attempts at goading me/other GC women into a big argument aren't going to work.

You just called it "hate speech" on another thread.

Lightbulb moment - validation by women's spaces. Ha, spaces.

'Transwoman' isn't being used as a slur - it's being used as a compromise instead of terms which are unacceptable to people on different sides of the debate.

Lightbulb moment - validation by women's spaces. Ha, spaces.

It's just not a particularly happy compromise for a lot of posters, as all one side loses is a little space, while the other loses...considerably more.

Generally the people who are using it are not those who are less militant on the issue, so it is less likely that they would compromise on that and then use it to post offensively.

I would have used transwomen until it became compelled speech.

We don’t accept TWAW in circumstances when sex is important; prisons, refuges, rape counselling, intimate healthcare, hospital wards, changing rooms, dormitories, sports, AWS.

Women’s equality is endangered if TW are treated in the same way as women. In those circumstances it is proportionate to treat TW as men. In order to make that argument we have to be able to use the appropriate vocabulary.