Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

I wonder if @MNHQ have a break down of how many of their users are disabled?
I suspect they drill down quite far for advertising purposes.

I don't have a disability but I have successfully learned to keep depression at bay (without medications) for 12 years now.

There are lots of different internal checks and techniques I use to assess how I am feeling, how honest I feel in relation to my life and my choices, how much power and control I have.

It this past 12 years I had to say some very painful goodbyes and go NC with people I had grown up with, end relationships, change jobs, etc because they caused me internal dishonesty in order to live with them, dishonesty such as my denying a lack of real connection, denying I felt abused and taken for granted, denying I'd been betrayed, denying that the bad outweighed the good, etc.

Basically it transpired that the cornerstone of my mental health is to not be living a lie.

I've said it elsewhere, but being asked to lie for someone else's well-being - is, ironically in this situation, 'triggering' for me. It triggers a whole host of swirling, overwhelming feelings of powerlessness, fear, depression, anxiety- with palpable physiological symptoms too, such as shallow breathing, chest pains, lower backache and heartburn.

For my mental health I have had to go NC and remove myself from situations and relationships which cause me that much stress. It just isn't worth sticking out to feel like crap.

The utter injustice of being expected to put the feelings of random males who just come here to troll and police others over my own, or the women I have enjoyed the company of for years, throws me through a loop.

It is confusing and bizarre.

I can't help thinking that this position is so unjust, disproportionate and unyielding that it must be a manifestation of sexism and misogyny in action. A bit like when my parent would entrust my brothers with things, but not me, but could not substantiate or justify the reasons.

So I find the rules difficult because they give abusers greater powers to abuse than the abused to process and defend against abuse. What are the point in rules that do that?

It was my daughter's then health visitor who referred me to the Freedom Programme, which finally taught me all about the red flags I should be alert to, & gave me the skills to correctly identify abusive and predatory behaviour.

Can I just emphasise exactly how enlightening and accessible the Freedom Programme is? And not only for women who are in abusive situations in real life - it also helps identify any abusive dynamics online or off and gives women tools to deal with them. The online course costs £12 and I think it's cheap at the price. Dare I say that even the MNHQ mod team would learn valuable lessons that they could apply to their job?

It's here: www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/

@MNHQ a really important issue with the guidelines is them being easily accessed. Would you please make them into a sticky at the top of the forum?

With having M.E, MN can sometimes seem absolutely vast and with an overwhelming amount of info. I often access it at my worst points of the day when I'm lying down because it breaks up my isolation. Finding something like the guidelines quickly would take some of the stress out of this situation. Because right now I would have to wade through 2 or 3 long threads to find a link to them. That's exhausting given I have little energy.

Does the idea of a 'sticky' work in the app? I know how to find the rules but it's a faff - leave the thread (thus losing a half-written post), go to settings/policies, from there to normal talk guidelines and in that there's a link to the trans policy page. I might just leave a tab open in my browser for now. I've already got tabs for the petition and the rules of misogyny as I keep wanting those, so if I'm active on a thread and you can't find any of those ping me and I'll be happy to get the link.

Hello everyone - just to say that we've updated our statement on moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues to pull together all the clarifications that we've made on various threads.

This page will be stickied at the top of Feminist_Chat for the foreseeable.

Thanks all.

@PermssionToSpeakSir That definitely resonates with me - my route to better mental health has involved professional therapy that drills right down into being able to recognise that feeling of 'being on high alert' all the time, and consequently feeling able to reject the cognitive dissonance that evolves as a form of self-protection.

I find being asked to accept cognitive dissonance as 'healthy' makes me feel incredibly stressed, anxious, on 'high alert', and infantilised.

I struggle to understand because there is no logic or consistency.

Bob identifies as Beryl and does not want to be categorised as in the same group as Fred and Steve as they don't identify themselves as the same. This is accepted and aplauded and anyone who refers to Beryl as Bob or who links Beryl to Fred and Steve is bad.

Jessica identifies as Jessica and does not want to be categorised as in the same group as Beryl (or Fred and Steve) as she doesn't identify herself as the same. This is not accepted and anyone who agrees with Jessica is bad.

So how one person identifies is sacrosanct and how another person identifies is sacrilegious.

It just doesn't make any sense.

So how one person identifies is sacrosanct and how another person identifies is sacrilegious

THIS!!!!!! We are in the process of all of this, as women, as autistic women, as disabled women being told that we have no right to speak. Yet can be told what we are, who we are and have labels we never fucking wanted stuck on us.

I’ve been struggling to articulate just why I’m so angry and Mimpi has it nailed in that once sentence. The idea that those who shout the loudest and make the most threats and demands get to erode the rights of women to speak freely is abhorrent. And very, very wrong.

I’ll happily use whatever pronouns are requested, I don’t want to offend. I’ve known trans women in the past who just live their lives without expecting everyone else to bow down to them, and are horrified by the erosion of rights caused by extreme activists.

I will be polite, I will listen, I will empathise. But when those demands mean that a sex offender could use those loopholes to get to my child, or women can no longer have safe spaces like refuges and safe houses, I will scream the fucking place down.

I'd use "males who identify in some way other than as male"
Bit of a mouthful...

Would it be allowed if it included tw do you think?

"transwomen and other born-males who now identify in some way other than as male"...?

Mumsnet

The sticky post is an improvement but you still haven’t addressed the hostile environment you have created for disabled women by requiring them to lie.

Give us a word which does not require us to mis-sex people. This is the heart of the issue.

Solidarity to you all

My practice nurse and GP are pretty sure I'm ND, but getting a diagnosis here for an adult female is next to impossible if you're GNC. The waiting list is four years for an initial appointment.

With you all.

I’ve had a read of it, and while it is still (imo) too hurt-feelings-driven, the FAQ has helped. I’ve been amusing myself by applying the terms to other ‘debates’.

‘... That said, it’s clear that most global-sphere-sceptic people find the use of terminology that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Flat Earther’ or ‘FE’. Likewise, many geoscientists are affronted by the term ‘heretic’ and ‘sphere fetishist’ so using these terms will make civil debate less likely....’

Transwoman - here’s an unambiguous word for a male person who identifies with femininity and has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in relation to this. No-one is being mis-sexed, as only biologically male persons can be transwomen, and it’s a fairly neutral term that a good proportion of both sides seem to accept.

Sorted?

Hungarian does not have gender pronouns.

I know a few who really struggle with this aspect of the English language and regularly call people the wrong gender.

This used to be funny. Now it’s a thought crime.

I know a woman from China who has wonderful English but can't get her head around gendered pronouns.

As a lesbian I get called 'he' quite often (even as a shortarse with wide hips) and it doesn't bother me.
People assuming I am cisgender does bother me. Because to me it's ideological. But I don't mind getting called son or chief.

Kid3 is very cute and still a bit chubby and cherubic at 11.
He does notice if he gets called 'she' or 'her' but is also aware that if he reacts negatively to that, it's just as much about sexism as it is about someone making assumptions about his identity.

Based on my observations of humans I do struggle with the idea that pronouns are such a big thing.

I've learnt languages with honorific differences and languages with 7 cases. I got to grips with that.

Pronouns are often going to be tricky for lots of people.

Like, why is it the person being referred to who is relevant and not the person who is speaking?

I mostly speak to women and speak Arabic. So I'm super rubbish at changing my verbs to refer to men. People are pretty patient with me. They don't get insulted.

Super, that is really interesting.

Also makes me wonder how this debate plays out in other countries with other language conventions.

I'd guess that most countries that have this won't be up for it anyway!

I was speaking to a woman from France the other day and it's the same thing over there - only the nouns and adjectives have to be changed instead.

This debate is not won via reason - it's been won via language - hence the tyrannical pronoun policing.

Transwoman - here’s an unambiguous word for a male person who identifies with femininity and has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in relation to this. No-one is being mis-sexed, as only biologically male persons can be transwomen, and it’s a fairly neutral term that a good proportion of both sides seem to accept.

Works for me.

Most people think transwoman means a female who is transitioning, not a male.
It is rather like transmisogyny in that most people think that means transgender people who are misogynists not people being misogynists toward transitioners.
We are all here on the steps of the tower of babel asking one another what these words mean now that Humpty Dumpty is in charge.