Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

Thinking aloud here, so I may be repeating what others have said, but we know there is a problem with autistic girls and women being open to abuse, because typically our boundaries have been eroded by years of trying to comply and having our own instincts and feelings constantly ignored.

@MNHQ are taking a position that actively encourages this abuse, and not just against disabled women, but with all women who have been socialised to be nice and polite.

We need boundaries. Our children (autistic or not) need to be taught clear boundaries, but in this age of newspeak it seems the boundaries are being deliberately blurred, and in the name of progression this is being sanctioned.
Again and again I am horrified at this. This is a website set up predominantly for mothers. I cannot understand how people are allowing this to happen!

? Someone reported SAs post or it wouldn't have been deleted, but I didn't ask who (mostly because I don't think it matters much, the real question being whether it was reasonable that it was deleted).

Thank you from me to all of the NT mners showing solidarity

Yy SA :(

If nothing else, these threads have demonstrated how much autism is a feminist issue.

It really has. And I want to thank you guys for explaining it all so clearly.

SA, I agree.

So many of the autistic girls I know are suffering from this trend to force us all into masculine or feminine boxes.

There are autistic girls who wholly throw themselves into 'class woman' with their obsessions focusing on things having to be pink and related to princesses well into adulthood. I see this limiting their choices and aspirations.

There are girls who don't have interests related to femininity. As these girls are interacting with therapists due to autism they are readily diagnosed as Trans (combined with the increased likelihood to interact online that has been discussed on this thread).
These girls are starting menopause in their teens and then finding it doesn't help with their suicidal ideation.

I also know girls with autism who start down the road of social transition and due to the superpowers bestowed by autism they quickly learn the right language to become central in local transactivist organising.
These girls are also loyal to truth, though and when they speak out about inconsistencies (like being a transman who is attracted to women and therefore not wanting sex with someone with a penis) they are ostracized.

This shunning is devastating and at such a crucial time in their lives to develop a bit of confidence.

I think that whatever side of sex vs gender we are situated on, it's far better to speak from our own experiences than it is to tell others what their truth should be.

Hopefully it's clear from this thread how these things tend to play out currently.

I doubt Mumsnet will comment on this thread btw. If they don't acknowledge it, they don't have to action anything. Plus if the autistic aren't virulent campaigners. It's easier to ignore the problem.
*
The best you'll get is an empty platitude telling people, to just play nice and it'll all be ok. Completely missing the point.*

I've asked them to comment on the thread, the email reply from the mod was:

Thanks for flagging this up with us. We'll make sure a Big Cheese sees this thread.

So I sincerely hope the delay is because it's being taken seriously by someone senior enough to do something (who may have been otherwise engaged in meetings they couldn't cancel etc etc), and because it deserves a considered response not something half baked. Maybe it even needs legal advice to get right. But it might be helpful if they'd give an acknowledgement to that effect on this thread.

So now I think I'd better report this post as a gentle reminder.

Paris Lees and Caitlyn Jenner are not transgendered males

That is exactly what they are. They are men who have transitioned to a different gender. Not sex, mind you. Gender.

Hopefully they can see that the thread started as gentle discussion among autistic women (and women with other issues that are often comorbid like dysphraxia) on what the new guidelines mean for us, and our lack of confidence in avoiding deletions.
And then posters who don't seem to have lived experience of these issues goaded us with the effect that someone was indeed deleted.
It's a bit of a shame.
I still think lots of important points were still discussed on this thread.

I hope that my polite request to SSMG to bugger off perhaps refrain from engaging if you have no idea what you are talking about, and the ignoring of said request, makes it very clear Super.
You'd think so, anyway...

It is really fucking cunty to come on to a thread of mostly disabled women and tell us to just try harder.

^^ This

There's more "mental load" with my disability (Statement for dyslexia and probable dyspraxia) in typing things out and organising my thoughts to ensure that a reply to an op makes sense AND makes the point that I want it to. Then you add in the pronouns nad the words which can't be used and it morphs from a quick reply into a type first, have a cup of tea, re-read and check and then post. That's the reality of "try harder" for me. So i post less, shorter and not at all if someone else has made that point for me. So my voice hets quieter or not heard at all.

That's my reality, saying to t"try harder" when I am already "trying harder" as normal for me stinks.

As an aside - I didn't really acknowledge the extra work involved - because as an adult diagnosis I had already implemented my coping strategies a long time ago. It was only when my children struggled and became exhausted because they were carrying this extra work that I saw it in myself.

Mumsnet

I hope you are taking advice.

Please make sure you refer your lawyers to sections15,20,21,22,26 and 27 of the Equality Act.

Please come back to us on this soon. The delay is causing distress

SA really interesting post at 9.30, that’s certainly food for thought. Thank you for all your posts.

I havent posted on here although i do support the OP

I don't understand why 'people' are allowed to derail what is essentially a support thread

That seems very inappropriate whether it formally breaks guidelines or not

As we were told in the original guidelines 'context is important'

I think I have been nice on this thread.

You are mistaken.

Is nice now a spectrum that includes the behaviors formerly known as rude, inconsiderate, etc?

Oh, 'nice' can mean all sorts of things https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nice

And some posters are able to make a nice distinction between words, to easily manage the verbal contortions to keep themselves on the right side of posting guidelines. And some of them manage it so nicely and 'politely' that it's not always immediately obvious that they're breaking the 'deliberately inflammatory rule'.

It is really fucking cunty to come on to a thread of mostly disabled women and tell us to just try harder.

And not understanding that we don't WANT to be NT - we just want a bit of leeway and support. You know, like the TRAs are demanding.

One thing that is going to get me banned - or lynched - is I cannot get the distinction between 'trans men' and 'trans women'. Is it transing FROM a woman or TO a woman/ man? And is it rude to ask which way someone is going? Because I can't always tell