Asking people to use preferred pro-nouns is abelist and discriminatory - what affects your ability to comply?

[DJLippy]

I wanted to start a thread because I am really going to struggle to stay within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

I struggle to use preferred pro-noun's with those who I genuinely don't believe are the sex they claim to be. Because I have dyspraxia pro-noun policing creates a barrier for my fluency. I have to stop and think to change the pro-noun. I can go back and edit my post for 'mistakes' to comply but I miss out on pro-nouns (again because of my disability.)

I have spoken to those with autism and they've told me similar things - that they genuinely find it difficult to lie.

I also think that it is difficult for those for whom English is a second language. Un-learning sub-conscious grammar structures is hard enough for English people - I can only imagine how much more difficult it must be for those from other countries.

I think this is a real issue when Mumsnet creates a three strike rule. I have stopped posting since the new rule change because I honestly and truly do not mean to break rules - I can't abide by this code and I don't always have the mental energy to police my sub-conscious like this.

Does anybody else have a reason (other than the fact that they don't agree) that they find it difficult to follow the new language laws? Is it right that social media platforms and public institutions create more barriers for those who are already disadvantaged?

I really think the mods need training on abuser behaviour.

^^ 100% this @MNHQ

As an autistic woman, I grew up with no innate understanding of the 'rules' of social interactions & acceptable relationship behaviours, and as a result, as I've written previously, ended up in multiple situations where I was subjected to serious emotional, psychological, physical & sexual abuse. It was my daughter's then health visitor who referred me to the Freedom Programme, which finally taught me all about the red flags I should be alert to, & gave me the skills to correctly identify abusive and predatory behaviour. It helped me to understand gaslighting, and the role it had played up to that point in making me believe that I was crazy & 'the problem' who needed to change in order for the abuse to stop. I refuse to be coerced into abandoning all that learning that's just about kept me safe over the past decade, just to appease the hurt feelz of [disallowed acronyms]

Hi there all,
The below is a response from KateMN, she's tied up at the moment or would post herself. Just to let you know that we have considered and read the thread (and are dealing now with those posters for whom we have had to lean heavily on the delete button). We do appreciate your thoughts.

KateMN:
"Thanks very much for this thread - we're sorry that the rules are tricky for those of you with autism and related issues.

We think the important thing is to do your best to stick within the guidelines, but we would absolutely take disability into account when making our decisions. We know our posters well and definitely don't want to be draconian on this. We need to apply the rules across the board, just as we do with other issues - but as ever we'll take context and circumstance into account, and we'd be extremely unlikely to suspend in these circumstances. There will always be an opportunity to discuss things with us - we're humans and we all want do the right thing.

On which note, please do report any 'don't use your disability as an excuse posts' - we take a dim view of that.

We hope that reassures you OP, and others who are in a similar situation.
Best wishes
MNHQ"

There, you've had it from HQ. From now on report the goady little fucker. They need to be taught some manners and respect.

Thank you for the response hope (and Kate), and thank you for confirming that mnhq take a dim view of some of the arseish posts we have had to put up with on this thread.

I still think there is an issue with "stick within the guidelines" though. When the guidelines are clear, we can (with work!) eventually adapt to them, but the problem is that certain things have been allowed "in context" and we (well I, anyway) am struggling with interpreting that into actual behaviour - when imo "in context" would apply to most posts? Iyswim?

I realise I am waffling, it's hard to put this into words exactly...

I’m autistic and I struggle with memory too. The whole trans debacle is really grinding me down, and I’m disappointed in MNHQ for bowing to pressure from TRAs while doing barely anything to combat the rampant disablism that is all over MN.

Honestly? The whole thing confuses me, the terms and goalposts keep getting moved so I haven’t a fucking clue what people want/are asking for/want from me. And I’m getting to the point where I don’t give a shit.

Incidentally it was raised about TRAs targeting autistic children and convincing them to transition, preying on feelings of not fitting in, or being different.

I’m probably not allowed to say that though am I? Oops.

do your best to stick within the guidelines

Which are.....?

As I say, they need to be a single sticked post at the top of the feminist section.

Part of my problem is that I'm clueless about what the rules actually are. Which is ever such a tiny barrier to keeping to them.

They should be easy to find and shouldn't be clarified in a million and one subsequent posts from an accessibility point of view.

'Keeping within the rules' within this context, is about as clear as mud and speaks volumes about how seriously MNHQ are taking the issue of users (particularly disabled users) being thoroughly confused and anxious over what the rules are.

I'm sorry but that post misses a lot of the entire point of what several posters have said on this thread.

I know loads of posters think it's pathetic, but for some of us this place has been and is a lifeline

I agree with this. And I enormously disagree with bullying tactics sidelining and maligning women, and disabled women in particular.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3283714-New-guidelines-in-plain-straightforward-English

So the women who perhaps have some of the most vested interest and are in a group most likely to be adversely affected by extremist trans ideology are the ones who are silenced first, because they are the least able to be able to discuss matters that affect them and people like them.

Its brilliant, really it is.

The most vulnerable in society are the ones with no voice and difficulty in getting their voice heard and taken seriously.

I'm really unimpressed by MNHQ's response and I didn't have high expectation in the first place.

It is really fucking cunty to come on to a thread of mostly disabled women and tell us to just try harder.

Or dickish, even?

So the women who perhaps have some of the most vested interest and are in a group most likely to be adversely affected by extremist trans ideology are the ones who are silenced first, because they are the least able to be able to discuss matters that affect them and people like them

Yes! It reminds me of that poem, “First they came.....”, because as a disabled woman I am silenced all too often. This is taking it too far. It’s telling me that my feelings, thoughts, very existence are less valid or important than the TRAs who are screaming about rights (the irony is not lost on me)

I don't feel like that really addresses my concerns about defining my sexuality as a lesbian in my own language while negotiating the barriers I experience due to autism, and the barriers due to finding the posting guidelines unclear.

I'm scared to give examples in case I'm deleted but did give examples on the original statement thread.

Appreciate the response @MNHQ, but think it needs rather more clarification into how our disabilities will be "taken into account account when making our decisions".

For example, one of my strongest autism traits is that I find it incredibly stressful & distressing to speak what I hold to be untruths eg it drove me crazy when my kids were little and I had to try to play along with the whole Father Christmas charade - I minimised my distress over feeling forced to lie to the greatest extent possible by ensuring my kids understood that all the gifts they received were from real people who loved them, except for 1 small gift each year that was supposedly from Father Christmas - over the years as each of them in turn asked me if he was 'real', I'd ask them if they wanted me to be truthful with them, & it was with the greatest relief imaginable that I'd then gently explain that it was all make-believe. In turn, my parenting mantra with them over the years was "I'd rather you tell me the ugliest truth than the prettiest lie", which I consistently backed up with greater consequences for lying than for being honest about having made poor choices, behaved badly etc.

In the context of trans issues, I have 100% firm convictions, based on my understanding of science, in-depth research, and my experience working in mental health that it's not in any way possible for anyone to change sex, ever. I also hold an equally firm conviction that 'gender identity' is merely an aspect of personality, & as lacking in supporting evidence as an actual 'thing' as the concept of a soul.

I'm not entirely sure what the precise guidelines are, but my understanding is that to stay within them I would be compelled to engage in what is, from my perspective, being untruthful (eg referring to 'trans women' as if they are an actual subset of the biological group of people to which I belong which has been referred to for hundreds/thousands of years as 'women'), or effectively be silenced.

Given all this, can you please explain clearly how my disability will be taken into account if I refuse to engage in behaviour that would undoubtedly cause me stress & distress, given that I don't think it's appropriate for me or other similarly disabled women to be silenced in this debate.

@SpartacusAutisticus

Thank you Hope/Kate, that feels like a start, but without clear rules many of us are going to really struggle. The easiest thing? For me and probably many others, is to just not discuss the stuff that's important right now (ie the threats to women's safety and dignity) just in case a ban means we are then unable to use MN for support when we need to.

I know loads of posters think it's pathetic, but for some of us this place has been and is a lifeline.

We don't think that's pathetic, Spartacus, MN has been a lifeline for a lot of us.

Right now, we're reading the thread, we're taking on board the questions and points being made and will shortly update the MN trans policy to best reflect how we plan to balance everyone's needs. We hope the wait doesn't cause anyone any anxiety, truth is we're all bedding in these newer guidelines at the moment. We do our best to be an understanding bunch, and we hope you do too.

Oops, x-posted there with a few people. Really shouldn't make myself a cup of tea and a sarnie in the middle of a post. We will take on board everyone's thoughts, many thanks.

We do our best to be an understanding bunch, and we hope you do too

With respect not that easy to be understanding when women are bearing the brunt of the rise of the TRAs.

amazing women on this thread who are teaching me so much. Thank you. Sorry you have to put up with this mind-bending crap.

We do our best to be an understanding bunch, and we hope you do too.

Nope, not since the new guidelines we don't.

Thanks MN.

I’m happy to wait for clarification - I’d rather it be right than rushed. It’s good to see you taking into account the specific needs of users with disabilities.

Personally, as an autistic person, being able to discuss factual information in clear and unambiguous language is what I need to be able to participate. I get anxious, frustrated and tied in knots when I start trying to jump through linguistic hoops to make my words palatable to everyone’s world view.

HopeMN Can I just make a point I've seen time and time again from posters of all kinds. When the guidelines were drawn up, why oh why was there not a consultation? Yes, we can post what we think until the cows come home and have but it's obvious now that no account for disability was included when the guidelines were drawn up.

There are people from every walk of life on this forum, some of the strongest women I know post on FWR yet our view mean zilch.

Please accepts a small number of these women and women like Datun who can put the case over in a calm way so we all won't need to face amendments when we are confused enough as it is.

Forgot to add, just going back to the title of the thread:

I will never ‘misgender’ someone via pronouns in order to hurt, distress or out them. I spent a lot of my life studying linguistics and if I use a pronoun in a way that doesn’t tally with a belief-based gender system, I will have done it to satisfy my own need for truth and correctness. Asking me to do otherwise is like having to comply with someone telling you to knowingly use bad grammar/spelling in a place where your posting can be seen and is associated with your name - even if it’s only an online alias.