Hostelling Scotland allows men to self ID as women and have access to women's dorms and shower rooms

[leyat]

ManFriday have a piece up about Hostelling Scotland allowing men to have full access to women's dorms and showering facilities - also without informing women that this is the case - so long as these men say they are women when they check in, effectively giving predatory men easy access to women where we are most vulnerable. Which is not only putting women in danger, but also now many women are going to have to self exclude, and since this is budget accommodation it will most likely disproportionately affect poorer women as well....manfridayuk.org/2018/06/15/a-scottish-hostelling-experience/

Oh yes, Queasy - and it's in the nature of Alpine climbing that you are not there by yourself, you are always with your climbing partner(s). (Well, it is possible to climb solo, but relatively rare).

I've also walked out of a hostel in Amsterdam when I just had one of those "more red flags than a Soviet May Day parade" moment with the two rather skeezy looking guys behind the front desk. I just thought "no way am I staying in an unlocked dormitory, even if nominally single sex, in the same building as those those two." I spent three times as much on a hotel room, but I felt safe.

Why should young people have to boycott a service? The service provider needs to change the policy.

Is there not some kind of trade description angle we can go at? M&S, youth hostels, GG none of them want the broader public to know things have become mixed sex - presumably because they know people actually want single sex. If forced to describe things honestly as mixed sex I think they would change their policies rather thsn alienate their clients/customers...

With a hostile ( typo but too good to delete) hostel why they are offering is mixed sex or mixed sex but they sell as single sex/gender.

You see to me this is another one that's like Parkrun - absolutely solvable with everyone happy, provided what everyone wants is a comfortable & safe sleeping environment and no one is more interested in performing some sort of validation exercise or something more sinister.

You just make sure there's 'open' accommodation. In a small hostel, a few single rooms. In a massive one, an open to everyone dorm as well as single sex provision.

If you 'identify as female', no problem, here is a sleeping space open to women. (Same obviously in reverse for a woman who identifies as male).

I can't see much reason to be obliging to anyone male who says 'sorry, that isn't good enough, I want to sleep with OTHER WOMEN, damn you!'

'Other women' have a right to say NO to that.

When so many of us have been groped in public, in full view of other people, in broad daylight, why the fuck should we think that open mixed sex accommodation would be safe? Time and time again predatory males show they give no fucks as to who is around when they want to abuse women.

Yeah, I agree, & I'd probably encourage my daughters to use single sex provision.

But clearly there is a demand for accommodation which is open to both men & women (couples or mixed groups travelling together?).

So as far as I'm concerned - if some people want that, fine, it's a thing.

Less worried about that than W&Gs being told yes we have female only spaces...& yet in reality they are accessible to any random bloke - trans or just piss taker - who wants to claim to be female.

Sorry - I'm not expressing this well.

As far as YHA are concerned this should mean single sex dorms are the norm PLUS some open accommodation if room allows & demand justifies it.

Not mixed dorms as default with one or two single rooms, as seems to be where it's going.

Although I'd imagine at this age they'd be travelling in at least groups of 2 (with friends) so that mitigates it somewhat. Still, it shouldn't even be an issue.

I don't think it mitigates it at all. One is most vulnerable when asleep and I can recall from the news recent cases of rape and murder against females, by males, in mixed-sex hostel dorms.

jaffacake I agree and I wouldn’t want to sleep in mixed sex dorms, especially ones that parade as single sex, but as there are clearly a lot of women who don’t have a problem with it then it makes sense that in larger hostels where space allows that a mixed dorm would allow trans individuals to stay without fear of being outed, and would also allow those male and female individuals who wanted the privacy of single sex dorms to have that too. If a woman doesn’t mind sleeping in mixed sex and is over 18 then they should be allowed to do so. They are presumably able to consider the risks and decide for themselves.

Obviously this would ideally be a dorm that was previously a male only one so that there would be no loss of provision for women as in my experience men are happier sharing mixed sex dorms than women are anyway.

Yeah that was what I was trying to articulate Queazy - you said it more clearly!

If YHA provide accommodation to both men & women within a given hostel, & they recognise a demand for mixed dorms (whether it's coming from mixed groups or just individuals who are happy with mixed sleeping), then I think it's fine for them to meet that need.

However, I think before they do so, they should provide single sex sleeping & invoke the necessary legal exceptions to KEEP it that way.

Then add a mixed dorm if that is what feedback is telling them enough of their customers would prefer.

The important thing should be that if a woman books single sex accommodation, that's what she is guaranteed on arrival.

If a mixed group is sleeping elsewhere in the building, having chosen & booked this, that should be OK too?

Their Public Liability Insurance details are available on request. Making their accommodation unisex by stealth is certainly an additional risk to insurers, and a significant change.

What assessments have they done? (other than being suitably "woke")

*5. 8

Insurance

a. Hostelling Scotland maintains standard public liability insurance cover. If you require details of the cover in advance, this can be obtained from Reservations on request. Guests are not covered by our insurance for personal injury, damage or theft of property whilst in a Youth Hostel, or public transport delays/cancellations. You are advised to ensure that you are covered independently for such events. Hostelling Scotland recommend personal travel insurance, including cancellation insurance*

FFS I've just booked a fucking hostel in Scotland for me, DD13 and 3 of her friends for a summer trip.

shiklah I would contact them and ask for a female only room, obviously only if you want to, but if you do then I'd do it, and you could even share what they say here on the thread, I know I would be interested as we are campaigning on all this and it would be helpful to know what people are told if they object. That said, hopefully you'd be pleasantly surprised and they would agree to give you a female only room.

You just know that so many people are willing to ignore the safety issues of self ID until something awful happens. And it makes me so incredibly angry. One woman or girl has to have some kind of horrific violation in order for female people to be seen more human and to even become remotely as important as the men who want to place us all in danger, cos feelings.

Added to all this, many of these hostels are out in the sticks and off season a girl could easily find herself in a small, 4 bed dorm.

And then a man is allowed in. Sickening.

If someone brings their dick into my women only shower area I would call security guard/police. It would probably do no good and achieve nothing but it would at least cause a ruckus.
Take your dick into a shower area where people who have dicks go. If they have a problem or you feel at risk, call security guard/police.

FFS I've just booked a fucking hostel in Scotland for me, DD13 and 3 of her friends for a summer trip

This sounds like a great opportunity to write to them and clarify the position. Are they saying that there is a possibility that a person with a penis could be permitted to sleep in the same room as your 13 year old DD and her friends? And if they say that won't happen, how do they propose to ensure that if they are allowing self-ID to gain access to single sex accommodation? The two positions are opposed.

We were in a mixed dorm in a Scottish YH last year. They asked if we'd be OK in a mixed one.

You had to pay extra for a single sex one.

I've emailed them. Thanks

Thanks shiklah, I would be very interested in what they say.

If anyone else wants to complain to Hostelling Scotland the email I used is [email protected]

I've also got a copy of their public liability insurance, so I'm writing to them too. HS are liable for any personal injury suffered by a guest if they are found to be negligent, so I find it hard to believe the insurance company has endorsed a self-id policy.

I’ve usually no issue sharing a mixed sex room. My issue is with taking that choice away from others.

I have used female only in places before and was pleased to have the option on those ocassions.

We were in a mixed dorm in a Scottish YH last year. They asked if we'd be OK in a mixed one.

You had to pay extra for a single sex one.

If it's not actually a guaranteed single sex one how can they justify the extra charge?

Does this mean that a woman who says she is a man would be able to use the men's sleeping area ?.

FFS, are these people stark staring mad? You simply can't allow men, no matter how they identify, to share sleeping and showering facilities with under 16 year old girls. That is enabling child abuse, no other way of putting it.

Yup that's what Man Friday did to see what would happen, link is in the original post...

interesting illustriously.... my understanding from what someone else said about EA, is that by charging extra for single sex you are discriminating given "sex" is protected....

Have I got this wrong?

I'd also thought this was the reason that transpeople were often given single rooms at same cost as a dorm - for reasons of privacy and the EA