Hostelling Scotland allows men to self ID as women and have access to women's dorms and shower rooms

[leyat]

ManFriday have a piece up about Hostelling Scotland allowing men to have full access to women's dorms and showering facilities - also without informing women that this is the case - so long as these men say they are women when they check in, effectively giving predatory men easy access to women where we are most vulnerable. Which is not only putting women in danger, but also now many women are going to have to self exclude, and since this is budget accommodation it will most likely disproportionately affect poorer women as well....manfridayuk.org/2018/06/15/a-scottish-hostelling-experience/

The other point here is that how are women and girls (16 and up) to decide not to go if the policy is not to tell them?

With GG the policy is not to tell girls or their parents if there is a dicky person going to be bunked in with them.

Your solution for all woman and girls who don't want to be bunked in with a becocked person is "not to go"..

That's an awful lot of things we must not go to

school trips
GG trips
prison
swimming lessons at schools (usually changing is communcal)
hospital in-patient treatments
sleeper trains has been mentioned
swimming ponds
and so on and so on

A lot of the old lidos have the tradiitonal changing areas so they are out too I suppose.

I think of you ask most women and girls in the UK if they want to get changed with / bunk in with a testicle-owner, they will not be keen, it is a cultural no-no for us, quite aside from the risks presented by a significant minority of bollock bearers.

Getting your ID changed doesn't seem too difficult.
Didn't some of the ManFriday chaps change their driving licences to M without needing any supporting documents? The YHA using this as gatekeeping doesn't really inspire confidence. Do you think they are aware of how easy it is to change sex/gender on a driving licence?

starzig

If you don't like it then don't go.
How is that supposed to work when women aren't being told of this change in policy? Women are not being allowed to make an informed choice, they are essentially being duped into thinking it's single sex accommodation.

Also what sardine says ^

Didn't some of the ManFriday chaps change their driving licences to M without needing any supporting documents

Yep. All you need to do is ask.

Starzig translation
Stay at home, women

NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay

better than nothing though?

agree not exactly difficult.you can change your name deed poll for eg

might put some chancers off though or ones doing it for a laugh - I can imagine groups of young men wanting to get into women's facilities of various types for a laugh

Women should start voting with their feet and boycott these places.

The pervs (and you are naive to think that there are none) who use the 'i identify as a woman' to gain access to female spaces, where women are in a state of undress, won't get any payback if women refuse to go.
win win.

Sardine I reckon it's not much better than nothing - changing name by deed poll is much more involved and has costs, but changing from F to M on driving licences takes very little effort and doesn't have an big administrative burden spilling into the rest of your life.

As for groups of young men doing it for a laugh - they aren't the ones I'm most concerned about. I think lone predatory creeps are much more likely to be a danger in these situations and for them a quick change to their driving licence would be no barrier.

Sounds more a failing on the hostel in question or the organisation governing them. This is a clear case they can use common sense and permitted exemptions without fearing legal action. Even if its someone actually started transition (document changes, testosterone etc.) it wouldn't be appropriate in all circumstances. I hope there aren't male perves who see this as a green light to access the female dorms.

Kind of comes back to the honour system I posted about, which many think is becoming devalued.

*Women should start voting with their feet and boycott these places.

The pervs (and you are naive to think that there are none) who use the 'i identify as a woman' to gain access to female spaces, where women are in a state of undress, won't get any payback if women refuse to go.
win win.*

To an extent I agree. But I don't think it's win win. What experiences will women be losing out on if this was the answer? Yes it will get them to think and hopefully change their policy long term, but why is it always women who have to change their behaviour and potentially miss out in the process? Why can't we actually get listened to in the first place?

Changing your name by deed poll involves a bit of paperwork, but doesn't need to cost anything. (Although of course you can find people who'll do some of it for you for a fee).

If self ID really does become a thing in all public places, I'm interested in how they're going to manage the needs of those women with religious reasons to require sex segregation. Or will they just be ignored and isolated?

NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay

My point was that when YHA england and wales came up earlier this year about their policy, I don't remember there being anything about having to show ID

Someone upthread mentioned that they had had a rethink - i wonder if this thing about id is part of that - maybe they will think some more.

How the ID thing goes with the self declared thing further up the same page, I am not sure about though.

On the men having a laugh thing >>

I think that there's a small minority of men who are serious sexual predators and a much larger minority of men who don't like women / enjoy upsetting them / engage in things like street harassment / grabbing women in bars to show off to their mates / etc.

Essentially while the first group pose a more serious threat - on the second group it is a massive massive number of men. Many of them don't understand the consequences of their actions - like the ones who shout obscene stuff at women out of cars - they don't give a second thought to how it must feel to be on the receiving end, they don't care. They are engaging in male bonding ritual (of a toxic masculinity nature). These groups / types of men will pose an issue as well. I can easily imagine a group of "stags" invading something meant for women, possibly with bad wigs and skirts on, fairly pissed, and finding the whole thing super -hilarious. (And all the women pack up and go home).

Name matching ID doesn't help. Man Friday's name will have matched their ID.

If you don't like it then don't go

It's not made in any way clear to customers though is it?

This is bonkers, and wrong, very wrong.

If they allow young people of 16 to stay without a parent or guardian then these people are still legally classed as children - surely there is a safeguarding issue at play?

I'd be very interested in the risk assessment outcomes and how these support ensuring the safety of young women who are particularly vulnerable when undressing and also when sleeping.

If you don't like it then don't go.

Jolly good idea. We will all sit indoors in purdah shall we? Not wearing anything outré in case it inflames the desires of a man? No going out at night lest we walk the wrong way home and force a man to assault us? No more hiking and Hostelling in case we cause ourselves to be raped? No more swimming in case we accidentally make men assault us?

I see absolutely no problem with this .... oh wait except perhaps the right of women to you know, exist in the public sphere..?

I think that staying from 16 is fine. I went on holiday with friends from that age - it's a good age to be taking a little step further into independence.

On the understanding that it's single sex - which it is at the moment. The idea that the other "girl/s" sharing could be anyone really obviously removes a level of security / safety and will make parents think twice.

Although I'd imagine at this age they'd be travelling in at least groups of 2 (with friends) so that mitigates it somewhat. Still, it shouldn't even be an issue. Plus, there may be situations where 16yo are alone, even if it's not common.

Why are you plopping jolly?

You could always go out in pairs (If you must). Back up in case a man comes near you.

I complained to Y H A and this is what they replied:

Dear Ms Macareaux

Thank you for taking the time to review our documentation and contact us. I’d like to reassure you that the safety and well-being of all guests is our first priority.

In 2016 we took the opportunity to review our policies in order to comply with the Equality Act 2010 and ensure that we operate within the law. Since then we’ve provided a warm and considerate welcome to all of our guests – nearly 2 million of them!

As an accommodation provider that seeks to enhance the lives of all people, we offer accommodation to guests us regardless of their gender identity. We do not discriminate against any individual and have put this policy in place to ensure that everyone feels welcome to come and stay with us. We offer both private rooms and shared accommodation. The toilets and showers at all of our locations are individual and lockable, this includes where we refer to having communal showers - enabling people to use them completely privately.

Our accommodation provision has moved on in recent years and we would welcome you to stay with us to see if this can help to allay any concerns you may still have. If you have any individual requirements regarding your stay I would urge you to call us and see how we may be able to tailor a stay to your needs.