Hostelling Scotland allows men to self ID as women and have access to women's dorms and shower rooms

[leyat]

ManFriday have a piece up about Hostelling Scotland allowing men to have full access to women's dorms and showering facilities - also without informing women that this is the case - so long as these men say they are women when they check in, effectively giving predatory men easy access to women where we are most vulnerable. Which is not only putting women in danger, but also now many women are going to have to self exclude, and since this is budget accommodation it will most likely disproportionately affect poorer women as well....manfridayuk.org/2018/06/15/a-scottish-hostelling-experience/

This is horrific when you consider who hostels' guests are. Students on holiday, possibly very young, possibly without the confidence to object to a potential predator in the dorm, possibly not completely fluent in English, probably not knowing what authorities to turn to, possibly without enough money to go anywhere if they feel uncomfortable.

... anywhere ELSE

With GG they had had some "advice" from some of the usual sources and the result was

Trans girls are girls and so there are no safeguarding issues to consider and no need to inform parents about overnights etc

It's not possible for an under 18 to haave a GRC so that's not a consideration here

essentially there are orgs that have been going around lobbying and persuading various women's and girls orgs (anyone know of any men changing their procedures rules etc?) that equalities laws mean they need to accept sex = gender and gender = whatever the person says it is and then they must accomodate them according to their stated gender else they are discriminating.

This is all not true but there you have it.

Actually, super interested to hear of any mens orgs changing their protocols in these ways?

essentially there are orgs that have been going around lobbying and persuading various women's and girls orgs (anyone know of any men changing their procedures rules etc?) that equalities laws mean they need to accept sex = gender and gender = whatever the person says it is and then they must accomodate them according to their stated gender else they are discriminating.

Exactly.

but are they actually saying you have broken the EA if you do not introduce self ID at the present time? Before it has been approved?

The problem is that if an organisation chooses not to use a single sex exemption and risk a court case, they have to allow self ID. I think the balance is wrong.

Remember there are two types of self ID. There is the self ID to get a gender recognition certificate which is what is being considered now. And then there is the woolly definition of "gender reassignment" in the EA which allows self ID by the back door by not allowing any gatekeeping.

Sex segregation is allowed for communal accommodation in the EA, including exempting men with a GRC from entering female only spaces. But the issue is hardly anywhere is choosing to use the exemptions due to worries about possible legal action and bad press

The law needs to change.

Policies that serve to place women and girls in danger and that lead to self exclusion as a result impact on the ability of women and girls to participate in society, thereby excluding us and this impacts on our equality and thus on our rights. This is a contravention of our rights. What we are living through is the result of zero impact assessments being carried out on this. If/once those assessments are though, we will have a stronger basis from which to challenge these kinds of policies.

Thanks.

So basically it as I thought, is the trumping of sex with 'gender reassignment' that we are considering here at the present time...that's how it is justified?

I just suddenly considered that somehow these organisations thought self ID had already gone through. But it has be default with the lobbying and scaremongering by trans groups. In this case, proposals to self ID and change the GRA make no difference in that case, because what they want is already happening with the way the EA prioritises GA because of current discourse surrounding trans issues...?

*by default not be default

...incidentally this is why focusing the fight solely on self ID for a GRC is a mistake imo, even if the govt doesn't move forward with it, it is happening in so many ways anyway because current laws allow it. This is why fighting for impact assessments and consultation with women is so important, we need the EA to be amended to protect us, whatever happens with the GRA....

Impact assessments..

With austerity didn't the govt say yes we're done a "gender" (sex) equality impact assessment but we aren't going to tell you what it says as we feel it gives the wrong impression...!

So if the govt can wibble out of these, surely others can too?

I've been posting on this for years, the problem for me is how we proceed with anything when there is no language or ability to describe the cunty half of the population as a group.

This is non trivial and everything flows from this.

Kettle, just basically we're quickly reaching the point where self ID is common practice because the EA allows it and exemptions aren't used, so the only reason someone would have to get a GRC is to change sex on their birth certificate, that's it.

I just get a chill at the thought of some of the predators (not genuinely trans people, but rather predators cynically exploiting self-ID) who will end up in women's dorms.

A few years ago I had a very disturbing conversation with my nephew. Nephew was (horribly) subject to child sexual abuse at the age of about 10 or 11 (the sort of "trusted adult on the fringe of the parents' circle of acquaintances" form of CSA) - not enough proof to prosecute (which is infuriating but not exactly a surprise to anyone on here, I guess). Nephew (now an adult) and I were chatting on the phone one evening, and he mentioned how he had, years later, come across this man in a youth hostel dorm!

Now it is of course beyond horrible that this sort of predator can gain easy access to male victims... but to double the number of potential victims by allowing them into women's dorms as well just beggars belief. Also, my nephew's experience gives the total lie to the idea that everyone you encounter in a youth hostel will be a nice wholesome individual.

(Incidentally I am beyond furious at the twat upthread who said we should just not go hostelling. Where do they draw the line? As another poster said, should we sit at home in self-imposed purdah? If I'm going to be asleep and vulnerable, I want the space where I'm asleep and vulnerable to be single sex not mixed.)

Absolutely leyat.

The trans lobby got too confident. Everyone too scared to offend, too ready to be PC, saw they could get what they wanted so fast - they wanted more, so they pushed for this to be enshrined in law - by changing the GRA- because it was already happening due to the way the EA is interpreted, and in doing so has exposed the reality and toxicity of the situation.

Sardine it's not only the govt that can carry out impact assessments, obviously women's orgs should have been carrying them out but they say it's up to the govt and don't push for it, they've basically shoved women as a class under the bus with all this anyway. Scotland's women's orgs for eg have been dreadful. A few of us campaigning in Scotland are doing a couple, just to highlight some of the issues as part of our campaigning, but we really need to push for rigorous assessments, as soon as we can show how this is impacting on the equality of women and girls that means it's impacting on our rights and it makes it much harder for the govt to ignore...

sex = gender and gender = whatever the person says it
That seems to be the formula they are working from. As sex is still a protected characteristic, they are surely in breach of the EA.

Hostels are not necessarily safe for women and girls anyway, so allowing for self-IDers in, is a recipe for disaster.

Even without self-ID the following:
1996, 13yo Caroline Dickinson raped and murdered on a school trip in France
As it turns out, the perp had a history of doing similar
2016 British backpacker Mia Ayliffe-Chung stabbed to death in a hostel by a stranger
2018 South Africa, two teenaged girls‚ aged 16 and 17 found dead in a hostel, the alleged perp is the ex-boyfriend of one of the girls

Seems like we need MORE safeguarding in hostels for women and girls, not less.

Well done to ManFriday for their continued work with this.
Women should have the right to have safe sleeping, changing and showering spaces that don't include anyone with a penis.

This is a nationwide policy that we have put in place to help us to create a safe and welcoming environment for all of our guests.

They've failed. The proposed environment is neither safe nor welcoming for females.

What are your thoughts on the mixed sex dorms that are quite common in Europe? I refuse point blank to use them but my husband (not British) is happy to use them and sees them as the norm. He says there are often women in them, but notably never alone. They often have little cubicals rather than completely open bunks.

Surely the solution is to have strict single sex dorms and in larger hostels where space allows to also have a mixed sex dorm with an 18 year minimum age?

It’s infuriating that rather than this you’re presented with mixed sex dorms parading as single sex.

I have actually used mixed dorms in mountain huts in the Alps - but everyone tends to be clothed and in sleeping bags, they've hiked 3000 feet up from the valley to get there so probably haven't got the energy to do anything other than sleep, and the warden's going to wake you up at 4.00am to start off up the glacier in the dark!

(Though on the whole, due to innate Scots meanness coupled with a dislike for other people's snoring, I much prefer bivouacking outside.)

Surely the solution is to have strict single sex dorms and in larger hostels where space allows to also have a mixed sex dorm with an 18 year minimum age?

Agree and it's what you tend to get in backpackers hostels.

Fermats I’m assuming you also knew before signing up that the dorms would be mixed?

Why don't we boycott YHA and let the female dorms get taken over by self identified men? Talk of shooting themselves in the foot.