Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

[Macareaux]

Mermaids has quite a reach. Influencing consumer groups.

The ease with which schools, workplaces and other organisations are being brainwashed is quite astounding

Psychologists don't assert that gender is innate, they can't, they have no basis for asserting that, so they most certainly cannot assert that people have an innate gender gender identity with any basis.

All they can say is that there are children and adults who experience dysphoria and connect more with how the perceive the opposite sex than how they perceive their own. That's it.

I've been told today that everyone has a gender identity and that I must be trans because I don't have one. This was by a fairly mundane trans person on Twitter (ie not a raging frother). This person could not grasp that I don't share their understanding of gender. It's so frustrating.

I wonder where not having an gender identity lies on the gender identity spectrum? I mean surely if everything is individually felt and defined, then it can't be questioned if we say we don't have one. Unless that's a form of identity in itself?

Deep.

Kettle they would say we were 'agender' which falls under the trans umbrella

Hence why I made a distinction between ‘agender’ and ‘agenderist’

I’m going with ‘gender atheist’ as my personal descriptor. I’m not really a rad fem (although I seem to edge closer to it everyday!) and this sums up my overall feelings. People who believe in gender identity are exactly the same to me as people who have religious beliefs. I will respect you in person as long as) you don’t try and convert me and b) you don’t lobby for laws that reflect your beliefs (although I support laws that protect you from being discriminated against for your beliefs) and c) you respect that my right to disbelieve your faith.

I don't think I can have a gender identity because I don't know what a gender identity could be. I await a decent definition I can actually use. My 'internal sense of myself as female' is based on my internal ability to notice my female sexed body, not on my personality. I appreciate some people are happier with their bodies than others, but a) pretty upsetting teenage years of eating disorders and self-harm here and b) I've just had two miscarriage in eight weeks so am really not in the mood to hear about how happy I must be with my uterus.

Also I do believe in souls, and yet appreciate that it's a religious belief, that it's not something I can reasonably go around ordering others to believe in too, and that atheists are not somehow invalidating my identity or wishing me dead by not agreeing with me. Funny, that.

Also I do believe in souls, and yet appreciate that it's a religious belief, that it's not something I can reasonably go around ordering others to believe in too, and that atheists are not somehow invalidating my identity or wishing me dead by not agreeing with me. Funny, that.

Exactly! And, presumably, when I say something like there is no such thing as a soul, it doesn't occur to you to accuse me of saying I wish death to all people who believe in souls.

That paragraph in the book posted by SupermatchGame seems to be saying that gender identity just means the fact of being aware of your sexed body. Nothing like the way the phrase "gender identity" is used by trans activists today. It also makes it clear that having a gender identity at odds with your sexed body is a disorder, not a normal variance.

Far as I know "people" and "person" has not yet been designated a gender identity.
Most of the women I know feel like people, despite thousands of years of men arguing that we are not.

It is important to remember that transgender advocates who insist that one has a gender when one says one does not are misgendering us and so violating talk guidelines.

nah, Lang, you are obviously saying you want me exterminated

Thebewilderness

I’m wondering if we should all identify as either non binary, agender, or gender-fluid and demand that Stonewall recognise us as belonging under their umbrella.

@53rdWay - a) completely agree. Disagreeing with people is nothing like hating them. But mostly b) big hugs, and so sorry for your losses. Xx

From now on, I wIll replace the word gender with personality:

Personality politics
Personality trends
Personality fluid

Personalities are strongly affected by social environment, and it's ALL OK.
As long as it is not harming anyone especially women and girls.

I'm going to try again because clearly I haven't explained myself very well. But first I'm going to establish some things I share in common with others:

Gender identity is not innate.
Mermaids perpetuate harmful ideology
Gender is bad and a tool for patriarchal oppression
I am not trying to argue for existence of a soul, gendered or otherwise
Gender is primarily a collection of stereotypes
Gender is a social construct

I agree with much of what others have said on this thread

BUT

(And if I get this right one day I will peak trans Supermatch)

Gender identity expression (probably more accurate than just gender identity) is something that is well recognised by psychologists and social scientists and is widely studied

The theory (which I am convinced is FACT) that gender is a social construct is relatively recent and has not had time to fully reach the mainstream before trans narratives have started to dismantle it again. My little corner of lower middle class suburbia is still highly gendered in its thinking 'boys will be boys, girls naturally prefer pink, Tom boys are the exception to the rule, men are naturally better at STEM' etc etc. So many people I encounter do have a gender identity. I know a lot of gender ideologists come here and say they can't explain it... it just is... but actually I think the difficulty they have is that they can't explain it without using stereotypes of one kind or another, which of course none of us can. But we can explain it when we recognise it is about stereotypes after all.

An example of gender identity is where we think we have chosen x, y and z because we like it and that we like it at least partly because we are female. But in fact we think we like it because we're coerced into liking it by societal expectations. Internalized misogyny is an example of a gender identity expression.

I don't want to deny the reality of that. I want to meet people where they are. Gender has affected the way a lot of people think, repeatedly, and, as their brains are plastic, over time that has affected who they are (in their brains not their 'souls'). It is connected with our bodies because other people categorise us according to our bodies but it isn't such a great leap for people to copy the behaviour more commonly associated with the other sex instead of their own. That will have to do with the way our brains respond to social cues as much as anything and that can be innate. Being immune to gender influence can also be innate because, again, this has to do with the way we relate to people socially e.g. ASD.

For those of us who are neuro typical and have had a fairly conventional upbringing the much greater leap really is to free ourselves from gender through active thinking. But if we are rad fems can we also recognise that having freed ourselves (in our brains at least) in order to help free other people from patriarchal oppression it would be useful to meet them where they are and acknowledge their experience, explaining to them how their experience is symptomatic of patriarchal oppression, instead of mocking, deriding or denying it. I'm thinking particularly of girls obviously.

Thanks @smithsinarazz

I'm not confused. I don't have a damned gender identity. It's a made up empty concept that transgenderists use to brainwash people.

All of us have a sex, and we observe from infancy that there are 2 different sexes.

There's no such thing as gender identity. It's bullshit.

Gender identity is real and accepted by most mental health professionals. It is accepted by the science of psychology.

I doubt it. In order to believe gender identity is real in the way that is promoted by transgender educational resources, you would have to believe that the mind is separate from the body.

I get you Sarah
I would rather have a respectful conversation with a gender adherent where I can acknowledge their experiences and hopefully get to unpick some of it with them, than yell 'gender is a social construct!' Pointlessly into the ether. It's very hard to do however

Elletorro

I think most people have a sex and a personality they are aware of.
Some appear to have a delusional disorder they are not aware of.

SarahCarer
But if we are rad fems can we also recognise that having freed ourselves (in our brains at least) in order to help free other people from patriarchal oppression it would be useful to meet them where they are and acknowledge their experience, explaining to them how their experience is symptomatic of patriarchal oppression, instead of mocking, deriding or denying it.

I agree, but this thread started from the presentation slides being used to 'train' people about gender. How and when do we get the opportunity to have a dialogue with the people organising these training sessions to try to change the way people are being trained? If Mermaids are involved, they will have got in there first, and convinced any neutral parties that we are all a bunch of hateful transphobes who have nothing useful to contribute.

Thanks Harry.

However I do think we need to spend more time explaining the social nature of gender here instead of assuming that people reading will already know and accept this.