Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

[Macareaux]

Mermaids has quite a reach. Influencing consumer groups.

The ease with which schools, workplaces and other organisations are being brainwashed is quite astounding

But if women did hate puberty and felt uncomfortable with their body, you don't want them to talk about it publicly? Even though it's quite a common response, and nearly everyone who posts about it goes on to say that they became reconciled as puberty progressed. The only appropriate experience that is to be shared publicly is one where girls rejoiced at puberty and were thrilled to gain hips and breasts? Those who love being feminine are the only ones whose views are welcome and helpful?

No different from that. Because some of us have actively and unconsciously incorporated traits associated with femininity into our personalities. Therefore gender has altered our brains.

SarahCarer but what you have described above is simply socialization.

@beachcomber. Yes. Socialisation causes gender identity.

I think the term "gender identity" is yet another obfuscation on the part of genderists.

Because if something is socialized it is neither individual nor inner. Nor can it in any way alter the material reality of reproductive sex.

If one's "gender identity" is simply socialization of sex roles by a sexist social order, then one would do better to actually call it that. Which, BTW is what feminist analysis does.

It is inner though. Just not innate. It becomes inner and people experience it as inner. In my world I have more success in winning people round by acknowledging their perception of their own lived experience.

And it is also individual because the extent to which we absorb the socialisation depends on a range of innately different factors; ASD, sexuality, narcissism (which I'm not using in a derogatory way). These all affect the extent to which we absorb socialisation

Actually I guess narcissism probably isn't innate. But also we all have individual experiences of socialisation; culturally dependent.

I don't know if we are actually disagreeing or if we just see different nuance in certain words.

IMO sex roles are but that does not make them as for me inner means coming from within whereas internalized means the incorporation of outside values (AKA socialization).

I'm not saying that people do not feel that their socialization is part of them and how they feel about themselves I'm saying that it originates in an outside force and influence upon us.

Which is why I think the use of "identity" is unhelpful as in these times of postmodernist identity politics there is a fashion for thinking that one's identity is an individual inner force without acknowledging that we exist in a strict social order which classes us according to our sexed bodies and which socializes us from before birth to submit to and comply with our classification and the sex role, caste and status assigned to our reproductive sex.

But culture is also socialized and anything else is simply our personalities which are also much socialized.

Of course we are all individuals but we are individuals that spend our entire lives in a totalitarian system of sex class politics.

And anyway none of the above regardless of semantics changes the material reality of one's reproductive sex.

Culture and society offer us all opportunities and simultaneously limit us. The issue is whether we are getting a reasonable deal, not whether we “should” be totally free to pursue any path we desire at any time.

Why are autism and narcissism being linked?

I'm not aware of narcissism being a causal factor in distress linked to gender.

Autism and narcissism are in no way linked. They are far apart. Autism causes people to be less responsive to social cues in early development than neurotypical people. Narcissism I understand less to be honest but I am wondering if it plays a role in being more responsive/reactive to social cues due to the continual urge to see yourself through the eyes of others. I am less confident about this assertion and much less well read around narcissism.

@beachcomber we aren't far apart at all. I guess I am just saying I totally understand why people feel that gender is innate even though it isn't. Also I cannot hold with gender denial at all although I fully accept that not everyone internalised gender.

Perhaps we are not far apart.

I'm not sure though because I don't know what you mean when you talk about gender or gender denial.

As I said before, I am using gender to mean the system of social control via which humans are given a sociopolitical classification according to their reproductive sex which categorizes them as inferior (females) or superior (males). Gender is used to socialize us into complying with and internalizing these sex roles and into believing them and the social constructed sexist hierarchy otherwise known as male supremacism to be the natural order.

I would appreciate it if you could explain how you are using the word gender. And also what gender denial is.

Socially constructed sexist hierarchy

(sorry)

Here is an example of women colluding with sexism. But such is the skewed logic of feminism that it translates to their being poor oppressed woman who have to do this to be able to play a sport rather than collusion. (There is a perfectly normal American football league which does not require these costumes)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3283417-what-the

There are plenty of different opinions on that thread, there is not one hive mind response representing "the voice of feminism".

Here's how I see it:

Lass - women choose to present themselves for objectification

Beachcomber - women are coerced into presenting themselves for objectification

Sarahcarer - women choose to present themselves for objectification and don't realise that their personalities and the way they view themselves have been significantly influenced by the way others see them and encourage them to be. When they make these choices they are being loaned power by men for male purposes and they feel powerful. They think they are taking power but men could have it back any time they wanted. They think it is power over men but actually it is only the power to please men.

I am much closer to Beachcomber's position than Lass's but I emphasise the personal experience of gender because it feels internal.

By gender denial I mean refusing to believe that anyone has a gender or that gender is an observable phenomenon in social science. It is observable in people's detailed description of themselves and each other and in their outward presentation and can be used to predict behaviour to a certain extent.

SarahCarer could you not put words in my mouth please. I wasn't on the thread about American football. Your above post looks like you are quoting me except it's not something I said nor is it something I would be likely to say.

Sorry Beachcomber that wasn't my intention.

Thanks SarahCarer. I realize it wasn't your intention. No worries.

Sarahcarer - women choose to present themselves for objectification and don't realise that their personalities and the way they view themselves have been significantly influenced by the way others see them and encourage them to be. When they make these choices they are being loaned power by men for male purposes and they feel powerful. They think they are taking power but men could have it back any time they wanted. They think it is power over men but actually it is only the power to please men

More infantilising.

I very much doubt those women think they are "taking power from men". They do it because sex sells. If they just wanted to play football they could do so without taking their clothes off.

Sex sells

I rest my case

I think lass it is notable that you conform to many social expectations regarding feminity. I would not particularly want you to talk to my daughters TBH as ‘an example’ of a successful woman. I think this would reinforce the idea that conforming to expectations of feminity is highly associated with ability to achieve success as a woman TBH. I know you don’t conform to all of them but nobody actually does. Given my two daughters are not feminine and do not want to be feminine and have experienced sexism already for not being feminine (my 8 year old is crying and not wanting to go to school at least twice a week because she’s being told she ‘can’t’ play catch due to being a girl etc by the children in her class) I don’t think you’d be someone they could look up to TBH. They’d want to see a woman who was successful despite not performing feminity, someone like them, who wasn’t feminine.

Actually Offred I'm successful because I'm a bloody good lawyer . I have never bought into the limitations imposed on women- whether real or the ones which certain feminists go to extraordinary lengths to tell their daughters exist whilst achieving little other than installing fear and undermining confidence.

Do tell me what "performing femininty" I've done?

I've certainly never taken on all the "wife work" burden for starters. Nor given up my name or my career. I've never been frightened of speaking my mind or putting forward my case. I applied for promotions and partnership and got it. Never been daft enough at a meeting to assume I would be one dealing with tea and coffee. Happy to take on speaking invitations and get involved in roles within the Law Society.

Or are you hinting that my it was all down to some sort of womanly wiles? Do you think I fluttered my eye-lashes at the interview panels?