Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

[Macareaux]

Mermaids has quite a reach. Influencing consumer groups.

The ease with which schools, workplaces and other organisations are being brainwashed is quite astounding

Ahh! Supermatchgame you have given me a light bulb moment. Now I see why other posters object to the notion of gender identity. They define it as you do! Like that cor gender identity you describe that has nothing to do with sex or stereotypes or gender roles! Now that - that does not exist. The butch lesbian is definitely definitely not expressing an internal gender identity when she is a woman. I was perplexed when people were saying you can't define or observe gender identity because you can observe the expression of gender identity. It is all over the place. But if you remove stereotypes there is nothing left. If you cannot define a concept or describe an experience then it doesn't exist.

I find this fascinating. I was a very GNC child. I actually got chased out of the female toilets as a ten year old who looked very much like a boy (and was secretly rather pleased about that because I really wanted to be a boy. Boys could do fun stuff and were allowed to kiss girls).
As I have grown up I have had a series of very gendered expressions of myself - often vampily femme, and I'm also into historical costuming and enjoy Victoriana and 1950's style. I change my expression on a whim, and it's very like deciding 'who' I am going to 'put on' today.

I have never been under the slightest illusion that the physical threats I have been subject to, or the disadvantages I have faced, or the physical disability I received through child bearing have had anything to do with being feminine or masculine in presentation. Those things happened because of my sexed body, and as such, need to be acknowledged and treated differently than the scorn I have sometimes received because I've been dressed in a 1860's day dress while walking around Debenhams.

The difficulties experienced by those who struggle with how their gender expression is perceived by others should be approached with interested concern, but it in no way correlates to the perils of being a person in a female sexed body.

Utterly apples and orangutans.

Sorry what I meant to say is that a person who doesn't adhere to gender stereotypes is describing their sex when they say they are a woman or a man

Sarah yes, thats what the words mean. Man and woman are adults males and females.

The names for the gender expression are feminine and masculine.

To you - being a woman and feeling like you are a woman are exactly the same thing

How do you know? I don’t know what it feels like to be a male, and i didn’t grow up in a time where i was told i could change it. I don’t “feel like a woman” though, either.

I don’t like my adult female body, actually. My boobs get in the way, i don’t like the periods, hormone cycle, male attention for my femaleness. I dress and behave gender neutrally.

Having said that i don’t think i’d want a male body either. A penis is an utter pita as far as i can tell, and probably would get in the way more than boobs do. Plus the semen and the wet patches- doesn’t sound any better.

If i honestly had a choice I’d pick my pre pubescent body. I could choose whether to present male, female or other, no messy sex related crap, comfortable clothes, and proportionally strong and functional.

I know i can’t do that without significant pain and risk, if it is even possible as my skeleton and body have already changed, and i can’t get rid of the hormones. I could probably have a mastectomy, hysterectomy and laser hair removal, but i still wouldn’t be a prepubescent child, or even look much like one.

I have had the experience of having a gender identity Supermatch so I can explain it to you - that indefinable thing. It is the belief that 'woman' is both part of who you are and who you choose to be. You recognise society's expectation of what a woman is and you know it to be who you are. You feel that what society wants of a woman is what you want of yourself - femininity. It feels familiar, safe, warm. You have actively nurtured your own femininity having seen it and valued it in other woman. You have copied your mother since you were tiny and known this is who you are meant to be deep down inside. You long for things you associate with femininity. Like teapots and intimate friendship.

Lots of posters here have never felt this way. But I have.

Do you think this might be the sort of thing you are describing? And the sort of thing that transwomen may also long for and feel?

And it is related to your body. As a biological woman with a feminine gender identity you welcome periods as a rite of passage. You welcome puberty and want to make yourself attractive as a womanly woman. You welcome these things not as biological fact but as progress towards a picture you have of yourself and this includes being attractive to men. This will all be making some readers want to puke of course. Sorry about this. I can well imagine how someone who identifies with femininity and has a male body would feel horrendous about their move towards a male body which is associated with masculinity

Do you think i am anywhere near Supermatch?

What you says makes a lot of sense Sarah, but feminine gay men often have close friendships with those kind of women.

It's therefore easy to think that you feel like a woman purely because you are one.

This is the sort of thing that chaps my hide. You probably do not even know how insulting you are.
Millions of women all over the world feel like people. They are pissed because they are not treated like people.

SarahCarer
I was with you until this: known this is who you are meant to be deep down inside
That is not objective, measurable or observable. How do you know? What does deep down inside mean? You are insinuating dualism - a part of us that is the real 'us' separate from our physical bodies. You are free to believe that of course, but it's just that - belief.

The rest of what you describe I would suggest is a good description of gendered socialisation in our patriarchal society. Our brains are plastic and are literally shaped by our experiences - especially as infants!

You may not be quite clear the point I'm making Jamie. That internal sense of gender comes from external influence combined with the internal drive to be social creatures, including those elements which are influenced by sexuality. IT IS NOT INNATE. Not in any of us. As I have got older I have thankfully been liberated and understand that I do not need the role I so aspired to. There are other ways to be and live.

Sarah i don’t recognise any of your post.

I certainly didn’t welcome puberty. Femininity feels alien to me- nails, clothes, hair and make up, gossipy girl friends are not what i enjoy.

The few times i have performed femininity and worn a dress and make up i have felt like a fraud in fancy dress all day. Utter relief to get home, shower and put my jeans back on- then i feel like myself...

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol I agree with you. The "who I was meant to be" bit was the delusion. It was real in my mind, particularly as a tween.

Yes reallyanotherone I'm not surprised. Many gc feminists have never felt this way.

Argh, also forgot to add in:

When you say 'who you were meant to be'
Think about what that implies! We are back to a belief system that there can be a preordained intent about who someone is meant to be that can theoretically be different or separate from who they literally are as they physically exist in time and space.

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol that's right. I had the delusion.

*SarahCarer

Yes ALittleBitofVitriol I agree with you. The "who I was meant to be" bit was the delusion. It was real in my mind, particularly as a tween*

Thank you, sorry if I came across as aggressive. I just really think that we need to explicitly parse the thought progressions here, especially, as you say, children and tweens literally don't have the cognitive structures to see through it.

Sarah - I think the butch lesbian is expressing an aspect of her internal gender identity yes. But 'if you remove stereotypes' there is still a sense of feeling that she is male or female - or that one's body feels like it is the right (or wrong) sex.

I think it can include some of those things you're describing (not sure where we're going with teapots mind). We're really deconstructing identity into a myriad of different pieces now - feelings, thoughts, behaviours. But I still think underneath all of that is a core identity - if you've imprinted more than just femininity, more than just copying your mother. If you have ended up identifying with 'femaleness' not just 'femininity' to the point where 'female bodied' is how you feel you should be then yes I think that is some of what I'm describing.

I can well imagine how someone who identifies with femininity and has a male body would feel horrendous about their move towards a male body which is associated with masculinity

I think that describes part of the experiences of a lot of trans women, yes. But 'identifying with femininity' is a fairly superficial aspect of it - gay men can experience that growing up too. It's when that identification goes as far secondary and primary sex characteristics that it can become severe gender dysphoria.

What are you thinking there?

Children, teens and adults need help to come to terms with their body, not encouragement to believe their body is wrong and should be altered in such a way they become sterile,

Right, and now all you have to do is find what that help is going to look like, how it could be delivered, by whom and what the evidence is for it. Meanwhile psychiatrists and psychologists have tried for decades to do that in the past. It has never worked. But go ahead and find it - I'm sure the NHS would take it up in a snap. Given how uncomfortable the average GP is with the whole process I'm sure they would welcome it.

No it's fine. And I agree. I think we are fleshing out a lot for lurkers and readers here and there are some fantastic posts in this thread. To those who are reading who have an internal sense of gender - I understand. I've been there. I don't deny your experience but what you were born with was the urge to be social, to learn from copying others, to respond to their expectations without even knowing you were doing it. To see yourself through the eyes of others and to incorporate their expectations of you into your expectation of yourself. Into your 'identity'. And to those reading who are bewildered because others seem to have this sense of gender identity and you don't: Believe me you are better off. You have seen through what others don't. It may have to do with the way you responded to social cues as a toddler. As a result you have perhaps had more choice in the development of your own personality than others.

I didn’t think you were implying it was innate Sarah.

I just meant that feminine women tend to have feminine gay male friends, and so people learning about and being drawn to masculinity and femininity are socialised with an awareness of feminine men existing.

@Supermatch Firstly - dismantle gender. This is what I have done with my own child

Please stop telling other posters what they feel and what they are comfortable with!

I'm not literally telling posters what they feel. I was using 'you' more in the general sense and as a way of applying the concept described within the literature. I'm sure you would still find gender identity in today's books - I was using that to show how it's used and that it has been around for decades.

If specific individuals believe they don't have a gender identity I'm totally fine with that! I'm not stupid enough think I can argue someone into thinking they have something that they believe they don't.

Secondly lots of therapy for people who are disastrously ill at ease with their bodies, many of whom are autistic and suffering with proprieception issues alongside fear of change. Their body feels literally less connected to their brain