Spreading the idea that everyone has a gender identity

[Macareaux]

Mermaids has quite a reach. Influencing consumer groups.

The ease with which schools, workplaces and other organisations are being brainwashed is quite astounding

Sarah I don't think my use of 'gender identity' and 'gender' are the same as yours? Could be wrong. They are two different things to me.

I think you can have a gender identity of female but be expressing a quite masculine gender. Eg a 'butch lesbian' that has short hair, no makeup, wears mens clothes sometimes (I have met some that do), and not conform to any stereotypes of 'female gender role' at all but they still have a female gender identity.

So yes I agree that a large part of gender is social construction but that's not the same as core gender identity.

I've heard some professionals describe it as an onion. the outer layer is the most superficial aspects of one's gender identity, makeup, hair style, clothes etc.

The next layer in is your social role and how you want to be related to on a day to day basis. Next layer in is secondary sex characteristics like needing to have, or surgically remove breasts. After that the inner layer is primary sex characteristics, what genitalia feel right for you. I can't remember if that is the core layer or if the core layer is inside that one - 'core gender identity'.

Not sure if I remembered that quite right but that was the general gist. It might be seen as out of date now but I think it's a useful model. Whatever our identity is in terms of that onion model I also think gender identity development is a type of imprinting and once you have imprinted your gender identity it is generally permanent (that's my theory equivalent to yours, which I am also fairly convinced is fact!).

I also believe (there is some evidence) that the development of that gender identity is influenced by genetics, biology, the reality of one's sexed body, prenatal hormones, environment and culture. Some people can develop an identity in conflict with that sexed body.

I think it's the two outermost layers in that onion that 'gender' lies that you describe - gender expression, stereotypes about appearance and gender roles. Historically linked to the inner layers of course - but feminism seeks to change that.

I agree with your last paragraph - having gender non conforming role models and for all of us to be gender critical so we are not shackled by societal norms/ patriarchy is a good thing.

What?!

I don’t have a gender identity.

Pre puberty and back in the 70’s pre puberty when my mum believed bikini tops were a waste of time when you had nothing to hide, i used to run about on holiday in my bikini bottoms and get sent by various adults to use the opposite toilets depending on their assumption of my sex based on appearance.

These days i feel pretty much the same. Dressed in jeans and a jumper i don’t particularly care whether people think i’m male, female, or alien.

I have secondary sexual characteristics which is why i am an observable female. It is nothing to do with my behaviour.

One of my dd’s has short hair. Depends on what she’s dressed in people assume her personality. It is not her innate gender, it is the gender others ascribe to her.

Transvestic fetishism is listed in the DSM too. Again you are conflating "transgender" with "gender dysphoria" which isn't true.

Transvestic Fetishism has always been listed in the DSM. It can co-exist with AGP and gender dysphoria. Where there is AGP there is an increased likelihood of gender dysphoria. (As has been mentioned before by others).

It is Gender Identity Disorder that has been replaced with Gender Dysphoria. I guess to depathologise/ destigmatise cross sex gender identity where there is no distress.

They (TF and GD) are a differential diagnoses but can co-exist. Transgender isn't a medical term or a diagnosis.

My point is that you are talking more generally about "cross gender identity". Which includes cross dressing fetishists as per Stonewall definition adopted by most policy makers.

I don’t see what the point is in claiming to have inner core gender identities based on whether we all want dicks or not.

I can’t have a dick anymore than I can fly to the moon. So why waste time identifying with the notion? We’ll all be dead soon and have stuff to get done.

I have secondary sexual characteristics which is why i am an observable female. It is nothing to do with my behaviour.

It is nothing to do with your behaviour.

But the fact that you are comfortable with those secondary sex characteristics and that they feel right for you, indicates that you have a gender identity that is not in conflict with your sex.

Because they are the same you can't experience them as different. To you - being a woman and feeling like you are a woman are exactly the same thing. It's therefore easy to think that you feel like a woman purely because you are one. Maybe you do. But you'll never know because you don't have gender dysphoria.

Yes alright Jamie thank you for your existential pragmatism.

It's a good point re: wishing for something you can't have. Children, teens and adults need help to come to terms with their body, not encouragement to believe their body is wrong and should be altered in such a way they become sterile, with significant adverse drug reactions and cross sex hormone impacts.

Well indeed. Because how are young people supposed to make sense of the world and develop as people when they are being told this gender identity stuff is some kind of psychological truth?

Common sense is now Existential Pragmatism

Works for me

But the fact that you are comfortable with those secondary sex characteristics and that they feel right for you, indicates that you have a gender identity that is not in conflict with your sex.

Because they are the same you can't experience them as different. To you - being a woman and feeling like you are a woman are exactly the same thing. It's therefore easy to think that you feel like a woman purely because you are one. Maybe you do. But you'll never know because you don't have gender dysphoria

I’m sorry but that reads as just so much bullshit! Please stop telling other posters what they feel and what they are comfortable with! The poster you quoted literally just said she doesn’t have a gender identity, you have no place telling her that she does. It is a belief system, an ideology, we respect that you believe in it, we’ll defend your right to do so, to define yourself thus and identify however you like, but quit forcing your beliefs on others. You do NOT know other people’s psychology better than they know their own because you read an old textbook and some links to biased summaries of most likely flawed research that you can’t quite remember.

I don't have an innate sense of gender.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female.

I have experienced male violence etc because of this. Not because of how I feel inside or what I think in my head.

I don't conform to gender stereotypes.

Last night, I went out with some male friends. They are very protective over me. They check I'm ok and keep an eye on me whethwr i meed it or not. That's not because of how I feel inside. That is how gender norms are imposed externally. I have no control over how they see me or the expectations they have of me or themselves around me.

A little more existential pragmatism in the world would be a very good thing, I think!

I don't think there is any justification to be sneery about the kicking back on this stuff from Jamie. Millions of people are being fed this psych disorder stuff in a pink and blue gender concept.

It may well de-stigmatise a small number of people, but it is also leading to chaotic damage being caused to children, sex based protections chucked out of the window and fetish being sanitised as a sexual orientation we all have to participate in.

It's hard to believe these are unintended consequences frankly.

I think this whole issue could do with many more posts like Jamie's!

To you - being a woman and feeling like you are a woman are exactly the same thing.

I don't feel like anything.

I just am.

SuperMatchGame I have been to the doctors and begged for a breast reduction.

I have spent thousands on push up bras, minimiser bras, hair dye, hair cuts, makeup, moisturiser, fake tan, sunbeds, stretch mark creams and oils, high heels, enough clothes for a small village, razors, waxing, epilators. Ive even starved myself at times, in an attempt to feel comfortable with my body.

While I cant speak for all, I dont think this is uncommon.

Just because women havent attempted to change sex, does not mean we are by any means happy woth our bodies or with the gender roles society enforces on us.

SMG talking to true believers about this is exactly like talking to religious people about how they have felt the divine.

Well fortunately for there are less and less true believers by the minute Ereshkigal.

SMG has what SMG needs, why the heck we have to be preached at constantly I don't know.

The Emperor has no clothes and slowly but surely everyone is realising it.

SupermatchGame, you're describing something that presumably means a lot to you but doesn't to others. During numerous debates about gender identity here each time very few posters agree that they have one.

As transgender ideology relies on us all having a gender identity, it seems the ideology is in trouble.

Lol, what genitalia feel right for you ?
You don't try them on like shoes to see what 'feels right' ffs.

Plenty of women don't feel right about their genitalia and primary sex characteristics. In fact, making us feel dirty and ashamed about it is frikkin patriarchy 101.

Lol @ works for me
Existential do-what never did no one no harm