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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can human beings change sex?*

260 replies

Terfulike · 15/06/2018 20:49

Serious answers only please.
*With acknowledgement to Bowl, who has raised this so often. Apologies if this is repeating a thread from the past (?): in any case, maybe it's time for another thread with this title.

Please, no wordy arguments about how sex can be changed by legal instrument around the world, just answer the question posed.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 16/06/2018 00:38

Is this that thing where people think that a woman is an incomplete man thing again? It's tedious.

egginacup · 16/06/2018 00:42

Juzzal obviously these people are ridiculous. And a very small minority. In the same way that the recent story about men who believed they had the ‘right’ to sleep with women- incels I think they called themselves, was ridiculous. But I don’t think these men represent the views of all men, in the same way as I don’t think these ‘cotton ceiling’ theorists represent all trans people.

Amalfimamma · 16/06/2018 00:43

@hellokittymania

It's a rare genetic disorder but those boys are biologically male at birth who have a missing enzyme.

It's nothing to do with changing sex, being trans gender, dysmorphia etc.

hellokittymania · 16/06/2018 00:43

Oh, OK, thank you for explaining that better 99.

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 16/06/2018 00:46

No.

JuzzaL · 16/06/2018 00:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MnerXX · 16/06/2018 00:50

No

Bloodmagic · 16/06/2018 08:22

Here's a complete answer.

No

Because sex is defined as "either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions."

Male is defined as "of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring."

Female is defined as "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."

So sperm producers are male and ova producers are female. But some people are sterile, so for people who produce neither sperm nor ova, what does it mean to be 'of the sex' of one or the other? Lets take a look at biology. Ova only come from ovaries. Testes never produce ova. Sperm only come from testes, ova never produce sperm. No one has ever had a gonad that produced both sperm and ova, nor one of each. No one has ever changed from being a sperm producer to an ova producer or vice versa.

So we can say if you have ovaries you are female, if you have testes you are male. That's definitely in the same reproductive category. But what about people who, for whatever reason might be born with neither? It's extremely rare but lets look at how humans develop.

In the uterus, two gametes (sperm and ovum) come together to make an embryo. In the beginning that embryo has undifferentiated gonads, which could be either testes or ovaries. If the person has an SRY gene (almost always on the Y chromosome) those gonads will differentiate into testes. If they do not, the gonads will differentiate into ovaries.

At its most fundamental level, sex is determined by the presence or absence of the SRY gene, which directly controls differentiation of the gonads, which in turn determines which part of the reproductive act the person could hypothetically take part in (sperm producer or ovum producer) and USUALLY results in specific hormonal production and sexual characteristics that we are visibly able to recognize in a person as male or female.

As presence or absence of the SRY gene is a binary characteristic there are only two sexes, no one is both, no one is neither, and no one can change from one to the other. Sex is encoded in every cell of your body and is a fundamental part of your body's operating system.

So anyone with XY, XXY, XXXY or XXmale (where the SRY gene is present on the X chromosome) genotypes is male. Their gonads will differentiate into testes. They MAY produce sperm. They will usually be phenotypically male. They will never have ovaries or produce ovum. This includes men with CAIS and other intersex conditions.

Anyone with X, XX, or XXX genotypes is female. Their gonads will differentiate into ovaries. They MAY produce ovum. They will usually be phenotypically female. They will never have testes or produce sperm. This includes women with CAH and other intersex conditions.

Some sexual characteristics can be changed (breasts or penis can be removed) but sex itself can't ever be changed.

Bloodmagic · 16/06/2018 08:24

Even if you don't have testes or ovaries, you still either have or don't have an SRY gene which defines your sex.

katand2kits · 16/06/2018 08:25

No. Even if you change your body and how your sex is recorded in legal documents, you cannot actually change your biological sex.

Serfisafleur · 16/06/2018 08:35

Here are lots of different genders people can pick and choose between and I think they're all great. Be a male presenting female it's fab. Be a female presenting male that's brill.

But I so deeply wish people would be honest about it all. You can't change sex. You can change gender. Your gender does not and cannot ever override your sex.

Keepithidden · 16/06/2018 08:39

It wouldn't surprise me if at some point in the future gene therapy allowed for sex change at a genetic level.

Nit at present though.

Keepithidden · 16/06/2018 08:40

Nit should be not!

Ifonlyus · 16/06/2018 08:42

No. I naively assumed the GRA had been brought in because there'd been some scientific breakthrough that proved people could be born with the wrong body. I've since had children, learnt a lot about gender and brain science and realise I'd made a ridiculous assumption. And now I just find it deceitful.

sexnotgender · 16/06/2018 08:46

No

Hideandgo · 16/06/2018 08:46

You can’t change sex but you can change gender. And you can change what sex you present as. In my opinion that’s all people need to know, the sex you present as. Beyond that is nobody’s business and should make no more difference than presenting as the sex you were born as.

MsBeaujangles · 16/06/2018 08:57

@hideandgo
And you can change what sex you present as. In my opinion that’s all people need to know, the sex you present as. Beyond that is nobody’s business and should make no more difference than presenting as the sex you were born as.

In many situations this is the case. When buying a loaf of bread, when riding on a bus etc. However, in some contexts our sexed bodies are hugely significant!

SarahCarer · 16/06/2018 08:58

Actually you only have limited control over your gender. Gender develops socially and psychologically. You can change the clothes you wear, the way you talk, walk, activities you take part in to those stereotypically associated with the other sex but you actual identity is affected by your internal narratives and thought processes since birth, AND ALSO the way others see you, talk to you, understand you. That is why being gender critical actually harms trans people and being a gender ideoleologist (as many TRAs are) actually harms women and girls.

CosmicCanary · 16/06/2018 08:58

No

SarahCarer · 16/06/2018 08:59

Maybe harms is the wrong word. Hurts

Ereshkigal · 16/06/2018 09:10

Absolutely not.

Bowlofbabelfish · 16/06/2018 09:13

No. You cannot change sex.

Anyone should be free to dress, present etc however they want. Transpeople should have protections they already have in law, and society needs to be smashing restrictive gender stereotypes so that everyone can live how they like as long as it doesn’t infringe others rights.

A few other points.

  1. co opting people with DSDs and intersex conditions into this argument is extremely an distasteful ploy. An XO female is suffering from Turner syndrome. She cannot change sex. The existence of DSD suffering people (who can all be placed into Male or female) or intersex people does not prove that humans are not either Male or female, any more than a child born with extreme holoprocencephaly proves we are cyclopic
  1. Have there actually been any cases of trans people causing issues in women’s refuges? unfortunately yes. There are a few ongoing cases in Canada where activists are trying to get women’s refugees closed or bankrupted in vexatious lawsuits because they remain female only.
  1. The question is ‘can humans change sex?’ Not ‘do people exist with non XY or XX genotypes.

If anyone thinks a human being can change sex, I would be very interested to hear the biological mechanism by which this happens. How for example paperwork physically changes sex - at what point? The signing? How does this affect the physical body?

I have asked this question many many times. And nobody has EVER said an unqualified yes. They have waffled about gender and feelings and paperwork but nobody has ever said they believe a human can physically change sex.

And it’s important because this entire argument is predicated on the belief people can - and we are being silenced if we disagree.

Puresummer · 16/06/2018 09:51

Not biologically completely, I agree. Yes though legally.

As for those who point out the "Legal fiction" - it's much like adoption is a "legal fiction" (it's the example most commonly used of one). However, we wouldn't have the audacity to point out that an adopted child's parents weren't their "real" parents, and we wouldn't refuse to acknowledge an adopted mother as the child's mother. Well, maybe some people would, but I assume most wouldn't. Nor would we ban adopted parents from parents' groups on the grounds that they weren't "really" biological parents.

auntiebasil · 16/06/2018 09:59

Adoptive parents are legally an adopted child's parents. Of course no one would be so crass as to exclude them from parents' events.
If someone has a gender recognition certificate, they, at present get this after therapy and hormone treatment. The change to self -ID makes it very different. It would be like me rocking up to one of DD's pals who has a troubled home life to say "well, I'm legally your mum now ". Surely no one would agree to that.

Ereshkigal · 16/06/2018 10:05

It's the Gender Recognition Act not the Sex Recognition Act.