Can human beings change sex?*

[Terfulike]

Serious answers only please.
*With acknowledgement to Bowl, who has raised this so often. Apologies if this is repeating a thread from the past (?): in any case, maybe it's time for another thread with this title.

Please, no wordy arguments about how sex can be changed by legal instrument around the world, just answer the question posed.

@itsbritneybiatch I totally agree, Magdalen Berns is awesome.

Here's her Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ/videos

No.

No

Yes it's magdelene burns!

I have a big train journey for work coming up. Deffo listening to her again. She has such a lovely voice.

Glad to hear she's going to recover.

Really sad to hear she has been attacked.

I think she's lovely.

Totally spelt her name wrong there. But yes she's amazeballs

*Egginacup
*
Totally agree. You've put it rather more succinctly than me.

@itsbritneybiatch I don't know if she is going to recover. The surgery was to prolong her life, I don't know if they can completely cure her. She has a health update video on her channel.

Magdalene does have a lovely soothing voice, which makes it extra funny when she's being snarky. She's also developed epilepsy. I really hope she's recovering well from the recent attack, she's been looking so frail that it's been making me want to stand in front of her like a human shield (which would probably be more effective if I wasn't a shortarse).

egginacup, which issues are more of a threat to women's spaces than the trans issue?

Which issue is more likely to affect the ordinary woman, with school going daughters, who may want to join the girl guides, play sport, and enjoy a bit of privacy when changing for swimming?

If there is such an important issue, why not post a thread about it?

And if not, why not spend a little bit of time thinking about women prisoners forced to shower with men, clients of women's refuges forced to share accommodation with men, elderly women forced to share hospital wards with (and accept intimate care from) men, and young teenage girls who are called names for asking that they not be forced to change with, and share sleeping accommodation, with classmates who were boys last week, and still are physically boys.

Where is your sympathy for those girls and women?

No

But if they go through full transition with hormones and top/bottom surgery then I believe they should be considered as if they have fully changed sex.

Anyone can be any gender they like.

Inclucing sport, Jugni?

Male people retain their skeletal size and bone mass, their heart muscle, their weight, and much of their strength (boosted by years of testosterone) after transition.

What about refuges/counselling groups?

Can a man who has been a "woman" for a couple of years really understand a woman who is traumatised by a bad relationship, who has been beaten and raped and belittled and seen her children destroyed? Should she not be allowed to talk to a woman?

Nope

No

Maryz

I'm not well read on this as I've stated.

Is this happening or is it something that could happen?

Maryz I am an ordinary woman with school going daughters.

I have one daughter in Brownies and one in Guides. In all honesty, if there was a child who had been born male but identified as female, who had the courage to want to join Brownies/Guides I would encourage my daughters to accept them and would have no problem with them going on residentials with them.

I think cases of prisoners should be dealt with on an individual basis.

I do have an issue with sports, due to the obvious differences in physical strength. I think it needs to be monitored closely and I don’t claim to know what the answer is.

Have there actually been any cases of trans people causing issues in women’s refuges? I believe that vulnerable women have the right to be cared for appropriately in women only spaces of course. However, trans women may also be abused by partners and also may need the help of a refuge. So where should they go? Again, it surely should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I am a teacher and have seen the increase in students struggling with gender issues, particularly identifying as non-binary. This worries me as I don’t like the idea of ‘female traits’ and ‘male traits’ and worry about girls thinking that just because they are not ‘typically girly’ (as they see it) they must not be a girl. That said, if they choose to be called by a different name or a different pronoun I respect that is their right and would never dream of being so insulting as calling them by their original name/ gender pronoun deliberately. For them that would be devastating and cruel, and it annoys me to see that happening on these boards.

I do continually tell my daughters that there are not ‘boys things’ and ‘girls things’ , that they can be anything they want to be.

More pressing feminist issues to me: the gender pay gap, abortion rights in Ireland, the low conviction rates for rape and media coverage of recent cases, womens’ rights to education around the world, period poverty around the world, the fact that our prime minister met with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia despite their appalling women’s rights record.

Why don’t I start a thread on these issues? Because I think there are more effective ways of bringing about change, such as being a role model to my daughters, trying my best to educate students in school about these issues when I get the chance, signing petitions... and because I’m pretty busy as a full time working single parent and usually come on mumsnet for some light relief! But somehow tonight this thread pushed my buttons.

*Angryattackittens
*
I feel like that too!

The answer is I don't know. I've read research that says prolonged hormonal treatment means that male physical advantages aren't retained, but I have a trans woman friend who tells me that isnt the case. There doesnt seem to be agreement on what is accurate. And if you believe that there is no difference between trans woman and non-trans women, then trans women would just be stronger faster women. I don't think that but many do.

As for refuges, I think that the decision should lie with them in deciding who can work there and who can access their services. A trans woman could have been through abuse at the hands of a male too. But obviously I see the concerns too. I just dont know.

It's happening Britney

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3271449-In-Connecticut-two-teenage-boys-who-identify-as-girls-have-come-1st-and-2nd-in-the-girls-100m-sprint

That's in the US, but already sports are divided in UK schools by "gender" not "sex"

As for Girlguides - safeguarding has gone out the window.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253884-girlguiding-an-update

Maryz when you say ‘ordinary women’ I also feel like you really mean ‘ordinary middle class women’. I’m starting to come to the conclusion that this is a class issue- women living in poverty have more pressing things to worry about than whether their daughter is going to Brownies with a boy.

Biologically: no.

(So that relates to sport too, since the biological constraints are what matter there.)

Socially? Socially we can make any kind of pig's breakfast of it all that we want. It is the group as a whole though. Self-ID is never a thing except suddenly now for trans people.

How's anyone heard of the little girls in the Dominican republic who grow genitalia, I forget what the actual word for them is, I will go back and find the article. This made me think of that. I think it's only specific to that area.

Here, I found it. Does anyone know anything about this?

www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

Well I've asked on chat on the ask the next poster a question...

Those aren’t little girls turning into boys though are they? They are male children with a genetic disorder which means their genitals don’t develop until puberty.

It says the babies are born with no testes and what ‘seems to be’ a vagina. Which reads to me as no penis = not a boy = girl. The babies clearly don’t have vaginas either, but somehow no vagina =/= not a girl.