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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

OP posts:
BoreOfWhabylon · 18/06/2018 12:51

Tell them about the female penis, John. And how young lesbians are being bullied, coerced and called transphobic if they don't want to have sex with a 'lesbian' with a female penis.

Datun · 18/06/2018 13:00

john

Sport is often one that hits men between the eyes. Perhaps they have a well defined concept of fair competition.

This thread was interesting. Two boys in the States who have come first and second in athletic state championships. Both identify as girls, but have had absolutely no modification, surgically or hormonally.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3271449-In-Connecticut-two-teenage-boys-who-identify-as-girls-have-come-1st-and-2nd-in-the-girls-100m-sprint

I'm sure you know that sport is the passport to education for many people in the states. And men will always beat women.

The other thing you might mention is girl guides. The girl guides published guidelines as a result of being educated by a trans lobby group.

This concluded that a 14-year-old boy could share an overnight tent and showering facilities with a 10-year-old girl and the parents of the girl should actively not be informed. Thereby, consent being neither sought nor given.

GGUK refused to engage with parents who questioned it.

fairplayforwomen.com/?s=Gguk

R0wantrees · 18/06/2018 13:08

articles by James Kirkup (there are a few others in The Spectator, some which make specific mention of Mumsnet) :

'The silencing of the lesbians'
(extract)
"To summarise: lesbians, who say they are sexually attracted to people with female genitals, report that they find themselves being told, sometimes aggressively, that they must include in their range of potential sexual partners people who have male genitals. And if they speak out to challenge such messages, they are told they are being “transphobic” or bigoted or similar.

Now, there are words for a person with a penis who insists that women who say they do not want to touch that penis should in fact touch that penis and who put pressure on women to do. But I won’t use those words here because this isn’t that sort of article. I’ll just say that this sort of behaviour strikes me as the sort of thing that shouldn’t go unremarked or unchallenged."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'
(extract)
Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so.

[Stephen Doughty MP], meanwhile, describes as “extreme” and “hate material” an article which observes that some people lobbying for changes in the name of transgender people are advocating things that might not be in the best interests of children. I have never met Doughty but have generally heard good things about him from colleagues: bright, committed, thoughtful and so on. So I must assume that he was having an off day when the committee met last week. It happens to us all, after all.

Surely a bright, thoughtful chap like him didn’t mean to imply that it was his job as Member of Parliament to tell newspapers what they can and cannot write? Surely he had no intention of acting as if it is in any way appropriate for a politician to decide what is and is not acceptable for journalists to say, and how they say it? And I can only hope that it was by a simple accident that he singled out by name a female journalist and suggested that her employers stop her saying the things that she thinks – because Doughty happens not to like her saying those things?... continues

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

R0wantrees · 18/06/2018 13:13

Datun

Janice Turner asked a very simple but crutially important question:

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair"

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

please see the response to the tweet

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......
JohnSmith7777 · 18/06/2018 13:13

I’ve sent a PM to AngryAttackKittens, Datun, BoreofWhabylon and Prawnofthepatriarchy. Feel free to ignore it, but it’s my response to the various points you are making/challenging me with.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2018 13:17

watch the clip above of the race until the end and look at the faces of the girls who come 4th, 5th & 6th.... what about women & girls?

dinosaur · 18/06/2018 13:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2018 13:58

Freedom of speech:
recent relevent articles and threads discussing them:

Prof Michael Biggs (Oxford):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3257819-Michael-Biggs-Sociology-Dept-Oxford-Free-speech-at-Oxford-Do-women-have-the-right-to-meet-to-discuss-legislation

David Aaronovitch (chairman of Index on Censorship, the free speech advocacy organisation.)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277408-David-Aaronovitch-comment-in-Times

Free speech in Universities incl. interview with Claire Fox (The Institute of Ideas)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238951-some-good-news

Datun · 18/06/2018 14:09

john

Hi John

As you requested, I won't go into detail, but in all honesty, I can't read a whole other thread about this, on another site. I read enough as it is!

Are you sending it to me to establish your credentials?

I don't doubt them. You've grasped the problem. The only thing you don't have, it would appear, is the experience.

Not your fault. But just be aware of it.

BoreOfWhabylon · 18/06/2018 14:44

I read some of the thread John linked to. It appears to be a male-dominated forum.

He's been standing up for us and presenting the gender-critical viewpoint for some months now. He's taken a fair bit of flak there but qiute a number of the other posters also 'get it'

Thanks John Flowers

Datun · 18/06/2018 15:04

Yes, John fully understands the problem, as far as I'm concerned. And is an ally.

It's just a little galling when someone suggests why don't you do 'this' without understanding the hurdles that women face, and how men are often very quick to tell women how to do feminism based on that lack of knowledge.

I'm glad that men are spreading the word and that more are getting it.

As the women here are only too well aware, men get listened to.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/06/2018 15:21

I've also checked out John's link and agree that he's undoubtedly an ally.

BiologyIsReal · 18/06/2018 15:55

Coming late to the thread may I revert to OP's point about staying here and continuing the debate..

I very much agree. I don't post often but I did paraphrase the latest ministerial response I got via my MP to my continued campaigning.

It turned out to be the first real admission on paper from a Government minister that the law of unintended consequences might be starting to dawn on them.

I was pm'd by a journalist known on here for their support for open debate because they could use the letter as background to inform the questions they were asking the Government about the whole issue. He found it useful as it informed latest Ministerial thinking.

So MN posters are very much getting the message out there to voices that matter even if a lot of it does seem to go under the radar.

Onwards and upwards MNetters!

LangCleg · 18/06/2018 16:09

Glad to hear that you are a well-meaning ally, John.

Word of advice: don't suddenly appear in a forum for women that is under constant external and internal barrage and post a wall of text, some of which tells them where they are going wrong. Say hi. Wait for a welcome. Gain trust.

It's never nice to be told your socialisation is showing - especially when you mean well - but mate, your socialisation was going at belisha beacon levels. Second tip: when women point out your socialisation is showing, don't go with another wall of text telling everyone it wasn't as a response. Bad move.

In other news: cheers for the support elsewhere.

MipMipMip · 18/06/2018 22:07

First of all- thank you MNers. I was a lurker for a long time and now I can't shut up. Sorry about that! But once you see it it's really hard to unsee.

I agree with posting on other boards where appropriate. I would never have gone on FWR had I not been sucked into the wormhole on other boards. I've been trying to do this for a while. I think it's worth letting each other know of threads elsewhere so that we can bounce them and keep them visible. It feels like gaming but it really isn't, it's giving people a chance to be informed. They can still decide on a side but they should have available to them the information to make it an informed choice, rather than one based on emotion.

WanderingWavelet · 18/06/2018 22:08

I've also checked out John's link and agree that he's undoubtedly an ally.

I can’t see the link on this thread? Can someone repost it ?

MipMipMip · 18/06/2018 22:09

And finally may I suggest that if you are writing a long post or one with multiple points you separate into individual posts as much as possible? That way if you make a mistake be misgendering or for some other reason get deleted the rest of your message still stands. If even Datun can get deleted it can happen to anyone so additional layers of protection seem a good idea.

Thanks again for informing me.

Datun · 19/06/2018 01:32

If even Datun can get deleted

Have I? No email.

Or are you talking about a few weeks ago?

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/06/2018 08:17

Wandering John doesn’t want his to be outed re the other board. He PMed the link to a few of us but doesn’t want it posted here, which is fair enough, I think. It’s clearly a predominantly male board related to a hobby

MipMipMip · 19/06/2018 10:45

Datun I was referring to the deletion a few weeks ago. I wouldn't like to promise you haven't been deleted since because, you know. But I hold you up as one of the pleasantest, most careful, well reasoned posters on here so the thought that you can make a mistake apparently worthy of a deletion is incredible.
And shows there is something very wrong.

LaSqrrl · 19/06/2018 10:55

Rookie male ally mistake maybe?
Unfortunately, I am hypersensitive about those mistakes, and boundary violations, and will call them.

I generally don't involve men in feminism, but sure, encourage them to speak to other men, not lecture us on how we are doing it wrong.

LaSqrrl · 19/06/2018 10:55

He didn't PM me, mwah! sob sob!
(relieved actually)

Datun · 19/06/2018 11:54

MipMipMip

Ah ok. Thanks.

I use voice recognition to post, not type. As it's quicker.

But a side-effect is that you can simply use more words to get your point across.

So on a most basic level, it aids communication. Because i'm not generally known for my patience!

These rules have forced everyone use ten words instead of one, so getting your point across has become all about how much time you have, rather than what you say.

I would highly recommend using the mic facility for anyone, especially if you're using a phone.

loveyouradvice · 19/06/2018 12:54

Flowers and Gin to John....

Delighted you are an ally - keep up the great work!

And if you ever want to start a thread about your experiences of talking to men about this - your experience of peak-transing other men and the ones who don't and why - I for one would be fascinated to read that.

loveyouradvice · 19/06/2018 12:56

And I actually came on to post:

Yes, lets keep posting elsewhere ... I realise I've started a couple of threads on here that could equally well have gone in Chat and AIBU... next time I will.

My goals:

  • share successes and stories and puzzling out issues with wonderful wise women on here
  • peak-transing people in whatever way I can - whether on boards or in RL
Swipe left for the next trending thread