Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

[MrsFogi]

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

I am still uncertain if Mumsnet agrees with daimbars and some of the other transgender advocates that women's rights are anti-trans and so any discussion of women's rights is hate speech. @thebewilderness I neither know nor care whether or not MN towers agrees, I haven't read them but I doubt their guidelines are based on what they agree or do not agree with. I will continue posting and assume that MN Towers is not full of idiots who are intent on shutting down any discussion about women's rights on a site primarily aimed at women (if that turns out to be the case then I will leave).

Look at this thread. Women worried about being turfed off this site if they say this or that. No wonder many of us have found elsewhere to post. It may not be ideal but we are safe and not gagged! @spontaneousgiventime I'm not seeing a great deal of angst about what we can and can't post on this thread, I'm certainly not trying to second guess what I can and can't write. I would however question what you will achieve by moving elsewhere unless you have moved in order to have a safe space to plan RL direct action.

MrsFogi 'Elsewhere' certainly will be a place where RL activities will be planned and organised. My understanding is, that was the initial plan for the forum. It has broadened out to now allow full GC discussion.

I wouldn't trust MN as far as I could throw them to not try to close down any GC conversation as it would certainly make Justine's life a lot easier.

The point is, women have choices, we can post here, there or in both places and I for one am grateful for that.

Glad to hear your view John. Thank you for your support.

unless you have moved in order to have a safe space to plan RL direct action.

I think that's certainly a reason for moving. We need to plan our moves against this. But agree that it's better to stay here, and I will.

Aw. If we all left, what would the daimbar posters have to do with their days?

I've asked to join so I have a backup place to chat more than a main venue.

I suspect that John speaks for a lot of men, quite possibly the majority. Even the ones who want to disagree on general "bloody feminists moaning again" principles will mostly end up coming down on our side on safeguarding issues.

Thank you for taking the time to register and post @JohnSmith7777. No need to apologise for the length of any posts here, I often find Proustian missives are often the only way to convey thoughts and arguments fully. The more men who lend their voices to the discussion the better as far as I am concerned. And, whilst it pains me to say it, unfortunately men's voices are often heard and listened to even when they are making the same points that many women have made before them. That is another battle for later, in this one I would welcome any men who are willing to join whether by posting here, talking in RL, on other forums or taking direct action (e.g. David Lewis running as a women's officer for Labour).

Very interesting (and encouraging) post. Thank you John. Thank you very much indeed.

Have a bunch of flowers and a firm handshake!

@Fairenuff

Even if a tiny proportion of transwomen are perverted fetishists, we still wouldn't want to share our sex segregated places with them.

I do see your point, but trans women have been legally sharing our spaces for 13 years now and there haven't been any problems.I don't believe the police are going to let off a perverted fetishist if he self IDs as a woman.

There seems to be an impression on here that a man will be able to get away with dodgy behaviour as long as he's dressed in women's clothes, when in reality it will make him more conspicuous and stand out like a sore thumb. The police aren't going to let someone off a sex crime because they ID as female! A crime is a crime.

Dressing up as a caretaker or cleaner would be the obvious choice for a predatory male rather than dressing as a woman.

Before I disappear for a while may I point out to those of you on FB that the wonderful ManFriday group has a public page over there that is worth a visit. Not least because ManFriday has been very successful in getting the issue talked about and because they really rock their flowery swim hats!

@Mogleflop indeed! I like being challenged and am prepared to have my mind changed but nobody has managed it yet.

I agree with the OP too but don't think talking about an alternative p lace to talk is a bad idea just in case. I need to save choc eggs excellent post. And thank you John.

Indeed. Which is why you're on every single thread 24/7. It's very very believable and nostalgic, bringing back those memories of claig

Some actual pleasant mansplaining there John it's a shame and speaks volumes but men are listened to much more. Any awareness spreading is good.

I'll slap you on the back, John, it being #ManFriday. I'm lying here being blokey while DS1 makes supper.

There seems to be an impression on here that a man will be able to get away with dodgy behaviour as long as he's dressed in women's clothes, when in reality it will make him more conspicuous and stand out like a sore thumb

I cannot believe, after all you have read and written, you still don't get the fact that a man would not have to dress as a woman. He can be tall, burly with a huge beard, wearing jeans, t-shirt and trainers.

The onus would be on the woman to ask him to show proof that he had self-id.

Why should women have to face that when in a state of undress/vulnerability.

And what about the girls. When they see a pair of hairy bollocks and fat penis swinging in the air? Are they supposed to be able to tell whether that person is a threat to them or not?

Come on, give me a break. Don't pretend you don't understand what we're saying here.

Mumsnet is an established and well known place and it would be difficult to replicate it. However there are also good arguments for having an alternative space where things can be discussed both publicly and privately and which is not a business dependent on advertisers.

Maybe it is not either/or but both/and.

There is free forum software around to use but it doesn’t feel right to ‘advertise’ that on Mumsnet. So private message me if you want more information.

I put my hands up as a bleeding heart leftie liberal. I started reading these threads with interest, but not getting very far because of not understanding terms and acronyms being used. It was like walking into a room in the middle of a conversation. However I kept going with it as I knew I didn't like the feeling of erosion of women's space that I could see was happening.

Then along came the thread started by a teacher frustrated with the use of language her students were using and their lack of understanding. It all clicked there and then.

The post up thread by chocegg was really brilliant in articulating exactly my feelings. I don't expect to be accepted in an alternative space discussing these issues as I don't have the credentials. I understand long time posters' frustration with lurkers, but I have nothing to add to these debates.

Anyway Im going to broach this IRL, and be heard.

Finally, in no way am I being "recruited", I am being educated. Please don't stop posting on here, I guarantee you are all changing hearts and minds everywhere in support of women's rights.

We need to post here but also on other sites ....I posted something on a FB page about Brexit, and an unknown man said he had no idea and could I explain...which I did, then asked what he could do...I said raise in political groups , unions, sports clubs. So sometimes worth a go. But the mums net discussions are very valuable and even if some of us are banned, there will always be others telling the truth.

There aren't forums we can set up that will replicate what is here. I've no intention of stopping posting and reading other posts here. I am hoping I can get involved in more rl stuff, organising meet ups etc. on a private forum and the way it is on here, with the scrutiny from some seriously disturbed individuals, it's not that safe to do that on such a high profile website like this.

It is a relief to be able to talk truthfully and freely without censorship and I do believe MN will be all the poorer for their unworkable stance on this.

Have to call in and raise a glass to JohnSmith777 .

It's always good to read feedback from a lurker and he makes some really important points about the role of Mumsnet and FWR.

Hope everyone has lovely weekend and gets a chance to recharge. This is draining stuff. Progress is slow but just look at the coverage in the mainstream media in recent weeks. Hope that manfriday are in the pub doing manly things until midnight.

@Fairenuff I still believe if a burly, hairy man wanted to do that in a female space he just would. He doesn't sound like the kind of guy to check whether a change in the admin process of getting a GRC has gone through or not first. And the police wouldn't be any more lenient with him if it had.

The only thing that would persuade me into GC feminism would be a threat to the exemptions in the Equality Act. I think the exemptions currently in place (eg preventing burly, hairy men from applying for jobs as rape crisis counsellors) should 100% remain and if these come under threat then I'm coming over to the dark side.

I'll try to speak more plainly daimbars.

Today, if I see the burly man in a female only sex segregated area, I am confident that I can tell the management and they will ask him to leave. I do not have to be exposed to a penis.

If self id goes ahead I won't know whether or not that person with a burly male body is allowed to be there. I can tell the management and they will have to deal with it. If they confirm that he has legal self id then I do have to be exposed to a penis.

That's really simplified but you can see the difference.

@Fairenuff if you saw a burly man in a female space now he / she could be at the beginning of the transition process. At the moment trans women have to live as the opposite gender for 2 years in order to get their GRC. This means using sex segregated spaces as the gender they are transitioning to.

And we all know it's harder for MTF trans women to pass so this burly man might actually have a GRC already in which case she has as much right to be in that space as you.