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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

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AnnUnderTheFryingPan · 15/06/2018 11:22

OP: absolutely agree.

We need to Centre women and their rights first and foremost. This is the most appropriate platform to do that.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 11:30

This reply has been deleted

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Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 11:31

Please ignore the nakedly transparent goading.

crayoladreamz · 15/06/2018 11:31

AGREED! It's only through mumsnet that I really peaktransed. I think without it I wouldn't have been half as aware.

Please don't all leave!

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 11:32

@RubyShooFan I am all in favour of women using their economic power (which I suspect is grossly underestimated by most corporates) and vote with their feet and their purses. That said, I am not convinced advertisers on MN should be the first target given that they are the ones that have stuck around despite the recent publicity and because, regardless of whether or not you agree with the new "guidelines", MN is continuing to provide a forum for discussion of the topics and it relies on advertising for revenue. I would however encourage you to email advertisers to thank them for continuing to support a forum that provides a platform for women (unlike twitter etc). There are some very obvious targets that you name but do ensure that you email them so that the understand why you are taking your money elsewhere and avoid the risk that they come to a mistaken or more convenient conclusion about why you are no longer spending there.
Whatever action you take make sure it counts by letting the relevant target know about your action.

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Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 11:32

agree! So if the male supremacists hereabouts would bugger off, that would be lovely!

Hear hear.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 11:37

I will be staying until I’m banned.

I will be calm

I will be polite as I always am

I will be Sciencing as usual.

I also dont think that targeting advertisers on here who are sticking with MN is positive. I will boycott any who adopt actively anti woman policies or who drop MN because of this, but simply boycotting those who advertise now seems counterproductive

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 11:39

@daimbars "Unfortunately there are also people... who take away all the credibility of the GC argument by being hostile and aggressive to anyone who posts a different opinion. "
Whatever the point being made, It is clearly unfortunate whenever anyone is overtly hostile or aggressive (and I differentiate this from disagreement which I do not believe falls within either of these categories). However, I think this is more a reflection on the poster than the argument. Given that this is an open forum there will be people who are more or less eloquent and they should not be silenced simply because they are unable to express themselves elegantly. It is then for the readers to decide whether or not it is worth their time responding or not. There will clearly be some people it is not worth engaging with because they are not posting in order to indulge in an exchange of views but are simply doing so in order to derail the argument.

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ChocEggNoThanks · 15/06/2018 11:42

It is important to keep posting on here. I have learned a lot about this issue on MN. The BFI choosing a man / trans woman to do the keynote speech at a woman's film festival has peaked me all over again.

When women are being erased from their own fucking festivals we need to keep raising awareness. Before reading the MN threads about this I would have been half supportive and half uncomfortable about this without really knowing why. I have worked with so many talented women trying to break into filmmaking and it's a total struggle. The BFI decision is such an own goal.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 11:50

@MrsFogi I agree. There have been some brilliant posts on here from GC women, liberal feminists, trans folk, sometimes even men! Wink I'm pretty sure the aim of MNHQ is to make everyone feel welcome.

I'm constantly being told I'm not welcome here or I'm an 'annoying little gnat' as @20pencepiece so charmingly put it.

If you want to have this debate on a public forum then it's fair enough expect posters to be respectful to people who have a different opinion than you. Otherwise a private forum would be more suitable.

flowersonthepiano · 15/06/2018 11:54

I thoroughly agree and want to keep posting here. Slightly worried you're all gonna bugger off to a private forum and not tell me. Don't abandon me!Sad

WomanScorned · 15/06/2018 11:55

I rarely post here as, as others have pointed out, the very knowledgable and articulate posters on here say it better than I ever could.

However, I am here, and in RL, I talk about this stuff. My 25y old son is GC, as are the two women I got close to whist in refuge. I/we raised the subject with staff there. I was visited in my new home by support workers and charity representatives. We discussed this. Every time, someone has stated that what I've said, what I've originally learned from this board, has made them rethink.
That's about a dozen people, who might otherwise have looked no further than 'being nice'. And I'm just one lurker.

Please stay and keep up the good work.

FuckLush · 15/06/2018 11:55

A closed forum would be like an echo chamber, preaching to the converted

And that is different to this page....?

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 11:57

@ChocEggNoThanks Indeed, we need to be shouting about the many individual decisions being made every day by professional bodies, companies etc in order to ensure that the decision makers understand the impact of and women's reaction to their decisions (rather than making them based on a vague notion of supporting "diversity") and in order to ensure that more and more people are aware of these concrete examples of the road that is being taken without asking women whether they wish to tread it.

But, every time.we need to ensure that we are not talking to ourselves or preaching to the converted. Every one of us needs to actively engage and ensure our audience is wide - discuss this one on the threads about films (in addition to or, better still, not on Feminism chat), sign the petition and email the BFI....Your voice will be particularly credible and loud - you have worked with filmmakers, you have an insight into the struggle, you will be talking as someone with insight and experience and your voice cannot be dismissed as "just another feminist banging on").

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MsMcWoodle · 15/06/2018 11:57

There are many ways of being disrespectful though. One of them is derailing. If a thread is about a particular topic, the influx of the usual posters who try to derail it are extremely disrespectful to the people who want to discuss that topic.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 12:01

There are many ways of being disrespectful though. One of them is derailing. If a thread is about a particular topic, the influx of the usual posters who try to derail it are extremely disrespectful to the people who want to discuss that topic.

I agree. And I wish repeated goading and derailing would be taken more seriously.

heresyandwitchcraft · 15/06/2018 12:04

Harmful ideologies, such as extreme transgender ideology which denies biology, often start by the ability to share deep seated prejudices such as misogyny and promoting harmful sex stereotypes without reprisal. This forum is the reprisal, otherwise known as defending common sense.

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 12:06

@FuckLush Clearly this page could potentially be an echo chamber. However it is a public forum so I suspect that there are more viewers than posters so hopefully it is less of an echo chamber than a closed forum which by definition cannot be seen by "passers by". My intention in posting is to ask that those who post continue to do so on a public forum rather than a non-public one. And, to ask lurkers and posters to think about whether what they are posting really is a "Feminist chat" issue or one that could be placed elsewhere. If even a few people post in other relevant topics then this thread is not an echo chamber.

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daimbars · 15/06/2018 12:06

This reply has been deleted

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Dragoncake · 15/06/2018 12:07

I agree OP.

Daim I totally disagree that using correct biological terms is hateful. How could it be? They are neutral statements of fact.

FWIW I appreciate the fact that you and other opponents of gender critical women continue to post here. I admire your tenacity and am not interested echo chambers.

However I seriously doubt that adults are going to be cheerled into gender critical feminism by random women on the Internet. For me, it just took a reminder to think critically. And an opportunity to examine the science and stats with a neutral mindset.

onedayiwillmissthis · 15/06/2018 12:11

Long time lurker here.

Never looked on the 'Feminism' boards until last December when I sadly found myself with a lot of time on my hands.

Never had any issue with other people's sexuality...had only a vague idea of gender...guess I just felt a bit 'whatever' about men in frocks etc...live and let live.

But OMG...what the heck is going on. A woman's right to privacy...protection of children from harmful possibly irreversible medical proceedures...erasure of my identity as a woman...the threats from men...yes men whatever the f*ck they are identifying as...that one with the baseball bat and tattoo.Bloody hell😡

To all the wonderful articulate GC women on Mumsnet...stay and continue to bring these matters into the open.

I have started to raise the issue IR but I need all the help can get.

LilMadAgain · 15/06/2018 12:15

Is anyone else determined to stay? I've just had the brutal realization that feminism needs to address so many sex based issues that women face and the trans stuff is only one part of it, I won't adapt my language and I'll accept a ban but I need this board to be around likeminded people to challenge a variety of issues with.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 12:15

Thanks @Dragoncake - I agree neutral biological terms should never be banned. I think Mumsnet we're trying to strike a balance by discouraging words that people found offensive. TIM and CIS seem to be the bones of contention, some people think they are fine and descriptive while others find them offensive.

I do think there has been a sterling job on here of recruiting women into GC feminism. I've lost time of the amount of times I've seen the words 'I had no issue with trans people until Mumsnet opened my eyes'.

Nothing wrong with a GC feminism recruitment campaign as long as it doesn't contain offensive language, negative sweeping statements and the rest. Otherwise it starts to look like a hate campaign.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 12:16

Cross post with @onedayiwillmissthis - she proved my point beautifully!

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 12:18

@daimbars our posts crossed and you of course remind me of the point I failed to make that it is not an echo chamber because you are on it and you, I and other posters have different opinions on the topic. And that is fine.

I don't think any of us can control the reaction of other MNers if they manage to convince lurkers of their point of view. I don't think making people aware of issues constitutes "active recruitment" but merely is a potential by-product of open discussion (people remain adults who are free to read more widely before reaching an opinion and even then, hopefully, remain open to discussion) which is exactly why I want people to stay here rather than retreat to metaphorical back rooms and private clubs.

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