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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

OP posts:
Datun · 17/06/2018 05:56

Placemarking

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/06/2018 09:50

I pretty sure John agrees with you LaSqrrl.

bombadina · 17/06/2018 11:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VioletCharlotte · 17/06/2018 11:56

Please do keep talking about these issues here. Without the Mumsnet posts, I wouldn't have been aware of what's going on, and I think many other people are the same. Obviously we should educate ourselves by reading more widely, but for a number of reasons, many of us don't. The femininist boards have really opened my eyes and changed my view on a number of things.

BorchesterTowers · 17/06/2018 12:02

BorchesterTowers, I would love to read that thread but can't find it. Can you help?

Thanks @PrawnofthePatriarchy and @PositivelyPERF
There's no thread because part of the letter from my HR was to say I was not permitted to talk about the complaint on social media. I thought that while it was in process, I shouldn't do it even under a pseudonym. But friends on MN I know IRL are part of various more private protected groups (I'm not) and they funnelled support, ideas, and information.

I'm OK now but I had 3 months of feeling like there was a target on my back. And I rarely retweet or post anything gender-critical on my RL name account. I have a second more anonymous account for that.

And I name-change here fairly regularly (I'll have to do it now)

So much for free speech and intellectual freedom in our universities. My university just had a Diversity & Inclusion Day, with info re trans from Stonewall ... I'm effectively silenced.

But almost every middle-aged woman I know AND more strikingly most of my male friends, are utterly shocked at what happened to me, and angry. Those with children are scared. People who know me know I'm not transphobic - as opposed to the named complainant, whom I have never knowingly spoken to or had ANY contact with whatsoever - I don't even know what they look like.

Right, off to name-change. I'm still twitchy.

OverTheHedgeHammy · 17/06/2018 12:16

I haven't posted about this topic before, but I have been reading what is being written here and I fully support you in this. I have been getting angrier and angrier about this issue. Thank you all for continuing this topic. We can't back down on this.

Pressyne · 17/06/2018 12:37

Delurking to say that I think it's so important that this issue continues to be addressed on here by smart articulate women. I came here via the Hadley article and, until then, I thought I was alone in feeling unease with the prevailing narrative. This forum has (to echo others) really opened my eyes and peaked me several times over. As an open, accessible place with so many subscribers (and lurkers!) its vital for bringing this to a wider audience and also seems to be a go-to spot for many journalists.

Right, having broken cover, I shall now go and put my money where my mouth is and post some more!

LadyLauraOver · 17/06/2018 13:28

I was angry at the silencing and am more often over on twitter and active in other places so I was all for leaving here. Now I find I am reconsidering after reading your thoughtful posts. You are right, GC feminists need to keep posting here.
John is right, we ARE winning the War but there are still battles and skirmishes and I don't think we can ever fully relax. The more the word spreads the more success we are having in saving Woman.

JohnSmith7777 · 17/06/2018 21:15

LaSqrrl, as BoreofWhabylon surmises, I do not disagree with you. I just think that it helps to understand not only why the meaning of some words is so important to your own side, e.g. the significance of the meaning of ‘woman’ for sex based laws and protections, but also why words are so important to the other side from their perspective.

I said I was only going to post once and then de-register, but there are some other things I want to say.

To begin with, I thought the issue of pronouns was a trivial (albeit tiresome) imposition. I now think it’s an example of one of the most important issues: not just freedom of speech, but denying people the very words necessary to articulate and communicate their own thoughts, their own beliefs, and even objective reality. Instead people are being forced to use words and definitions which are intended to express the beliefs of others, and to validate their identity. An identity which is so fragile - because it is so at odds with reality - that it needs to be propped up by the willing or unwilling participation of everyone around them.

It’s common for sub-cultures and marginal groups, including each new generation of teenagers and young adults, to invent and use their own language and words and create new, additional meanings for existing words, e.g. the use of ‘wicked’ to mean good.

Such use of words by minority groups helps to bind the group together and reinforce the sense of distinct identity of its members. Unlike other typical forms of outward expression of self-identification as part of group, such as wearing particular types of clothing or hairstyles etc., using a private language and words is about shaping and directing the thoughts, beliefs and discussions of members. It is also often a way of excluding outsiders; a way for members of a marginalised group to slightly redress the power imbalance that usually exists between them and the majority.

Prior to homosexuality being decriminalised Polari was used in particular by gay people in the theatrical/entertainment industry, and some of the words entered wider usage, e.g. ‘rough trade’ and ‘Naff off!’. As homosexuality became more widely accepted in society, Polari’s use declined. There is not much need for a private language for a group which is increasingly mainstream, such as gay people in the entertainment industry.

The difference with transgenderism is that as it has become more mainstream and widely accepted, it has sought - and is seeking - to impose its words and its definitions of the meaning of existing words on the rest of society. And this concerns not just any old words, but words as fundamental and basic to human communication as ‘woman’ and the third person singular personal pronouns.

A key reason for this is that it is an ideology which is about self-identification and nothing else, and it needs the Emperor’s Clothes of new words and new meanings for existing words, in order to give itself the illusion of substance. Set aside the mental health disorder aspects and the sexuality aspects, and there is nothing else left: it’s a vacuum. Unlike other sub-groups which almost invariably enrich our culture (e.g. the huge contribution of homosexuals to the arts, or sub-groups which spawned numerous musical genres like punk), transgenderism is so hopelessly self-obsessed and inward looking that it contributes nothing to society; it’s a barren, sterile construct.

(Before anyone mentions Eddie Izzard and Grayson Perry, they are talented individuals of a former generation who would probably have succeeded in their fields whether or not they were transvestites, and I think their work is both universal and particular to them, rather than a product of any transgender culture.)

The insistence of a tiny group of people that words and speech are modified to validate their identity is an intrusive mental and emotional drain not only on those around them in real life, but on many more people online as well, as this website demonstrates.

I think there is also another much simpler reason why many, especially young male, transgender people want to impose their words and definitions of the meaning of existing words on everyone else, which is that it alters the balance of power with people who are often older/senior and/or much more privileged. I think many of them get a kick out of forcing people constantly to walk on eggshells as they watch their language, and in making them use words in complete opposition to their accepted/real meaning. It’s not a marginal group using its own language and words to exclude the rest of society; instead it’s a forced oppressive inclusion of the rest of society into using the group’s words and meanings.

Finally, LaSqrrl your mention of Dittany reminds me that much of what she wrote went completely over my head at the time. Sadly it is not possible to revisit those threads and read them with fresh eyes, because her posts have been deleted. That is a great loss and it would be very enlightening to read those posts now given the current situation.

LaSqrrl · 17/06/2018 23:12

John it was your tone of 'dispassionate observer' that ticked me off. 'Cis' is not a neutral term, it is loaded with a lot of gender role hierarchy acceptance, and it was forced upon us. It is at its core, anti-feminist. So to come in, and just wave it off as 'something they just do, fairly harmless banter', is not acceptable.

JohnSmith7777 · 18/06/2018 02:43

LaSqrrl, I knew that my comments might seem, as you say, those of a ‘dispassionate observer’, but to the extent that they are about women’s rights, they are matters on which women must make the arguments and decide. I can root for you, but I am also aware that there are many other women who do not take a gender critical position. Feminism is for women, and I don’t think I can do much more than support from the side-lines in this debate.

Freedom of speech (which does affect men as much as women) is less important than the very real threat to the lives and well-being of women and girls posed by the removal of sex based protections, but it is nevertheless an important issue, and one which probably has a great deal of resonance for journalists, whose cooperation gender critical feminists need in order to get their arguments heard more widely via the media.

As for ‘cis’, I do not dismiss it as banter. I think it is important to know your enemy, including their beliefs and why they hold those beliefs. You say that they don’t need ‘cis’ as a descriptor, but I think that their self-identity is so fragile and without real foundation, that they depend on being able to see themselves as ‘non-cis’ women. Take that away, and they are forced to see themselves as men. I presume that is what they mean about gender critical feminists wanting to ‘deny their existence’. So ‘cis’ is somewhat existential for them.

I’m going to be a dispassionate observer and mansplain again. No matter how right you are to be angered by this issue, you need to be cold and calculating to win this fight – anger and rage need to be channelled constructively into effective activism like ManFriday, into developing and refining the arguments that expose the dangers of self-id etc., and especially into preparing and rehearsing the spokeswomen who will represent the gender critical side to the media. I’ve read on threads discussing Genderquake and radio interviews that gender critical spokeswomen were not always able or sufficiently effective to get their arguments or rebuttals across, so it sounds like that needs to improve.

For example, I suspect that at some point a transgender proponent will try to use scientific arguments in a radio or TV interview. Those arguments have already been attempted by transactivists on FWR and robustly debunked by several highly qualified scientists who are Mumsnetters. I would suggest collating those arguments and the evidence that refutes them and distilling them into a set of talking points for any gender critical spokeswomen to learn and rehearse.

Like I said, I am rooting for you, as I am sure are a lot of men. Good Luck.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/06/2018 06:06

I see the idea of cisgender as being central to genderist arguments, for the reasons given by John. For gender identity to mean what they want it to mean, everyone has to have a strong internal and innate sense of their gender which is separate from their physical sex. But if lots of people don't have one and, on top of that, protest that they're not prepared to have trans advocates tell them they do, the whole thing collapses.

The whole "born in the wrong body" narrative only make sense if you believe in souls and in the very weird idea that you can "feel like a woman/man". When people say that I find myself wondering which woman they think they're feeling like. Because it's nothing as nebulous as feelings that make women women.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/06/2018 07:10

I’ve read on threads discussing Genderquake and radio interviews that gender critical spokeswomen were not always able or sufficiently effective to get their arguments or rebuttals across, so it sounds like that needs to improve.

I agree they have sometimes been unable to - I dont always think that’s down to them. There is a definite dynamic in the interviews I’ve heard of the debate opponent speaking over, interrupting etc and the debate host allowing it, and being inefficient in how they handle and adjudicate the interview. The last word as it were often goes to the opponent. Interruptions are not cracked down on.

I would suggest some media training, to overcome the inherent ‘be nice and let others speak’ so many women are indoctrinated with, and to recognise and rebut some of the debate methods ‘on the hoof.’ These things are not easy to do. I’ve been arguing my corner as a scientist and feminist for decades now and I’m not sure I’d handle it on the radio for example. It’s a skill.

I love the idea of a science crib sheet and I would be very happy to put some verbiage together for that as I’m sure would some of our other fabulous scientists.

WanderingWavelet · 18/06/2018 08:10

'Cis' is not a neutral term, it is loaded with a lot of gender role hierarchy acceptance, and it was forced upon us. It is at its core, anti-feminist.

Part of the problem is - still - the confusion of "sex" and "gender" and the widespread adoption of "gender" when people really mean sex. It's endemic on official forms, and I find that increasingly online there's no way of crossing out Gender and writing "I think you mean sex."

Another part of the problem is ill-digested (or not read at all) po-mo theory.

And @JohnSmith7777 - I'm sure you're well-meaning, but your mansplaining is really annoying. It's enough for a supporter, such as you position yourself as, simply to post to say "As a lurker, I hear you. THere are many men who are worried about this. What can we do?"

Instead of telling us what we already know. I deal; with this stuff every day & all the time, as do many other women. We know where it comes from - it's our lived experience.

What we need is for lurkers & supporters like you to stop telling women what they already know (I can't tell you how SICK I am of men telling women how to do feminism) and ask us "How can we help?"

Maybe look at the work Michael Conroy does - he is a marvellous role model for well-meaning men. You could learn something from him - he's on Twitter under his own name.

Meanwhile, start talking to your male friends & colleagues & family: show them how this affects them. Because it does.

LaSqrrl · 18/06/2018 09:46

No matter how right you are to be angered by this issue, you need to be cold and calculating to win this fight – anger and rage need to be channelled constructively into effective activism like ManFriday

Wow, did you ever overstep your boundary. That is pure mansplainin' turf as to how we (or in particular, I) are doin' feminism wrong™. The thing of it is, you have no idea what I do, what I have done, or how long I have done it for.

A huge threat to women's and girls' rights is under way. Perhaps you are seeing a sense of urgency that you perceive as 'anger' (or irrationality!!!) - I have seen how things have moved on this front just in the last decade. What you actually don't get, is that there are facets of feminism, some activism, some theory, some negotiators, but not all of it is visible to you. And most of it never will be. In all the feminist meetings I have attended, not a be-penised one to be seen, deliberately.

Further, we have been told for generations to "just be polite and ask nicely" for what we want. Has not worked, will never work. Shit only ever gets done by very angry women. The movement actually needs angry women as its 'engine'. No apologies.

LaSqrrl · 18/06/2018 10:48

John, saw this on facebook, and immediately thought of you!
You're welcome!

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......
JohnSmith7777 · 18/06/2018 11:09

“I'm sure you're well-meaning, but your mansplaining is really annoying.”

You say I am telling you what you already know, but from my (admittedly not exhaustive) reading of the board I think I have made some valid points that had not been put forward by others. If you think not, feel free to tell me to Foxtrot Oscar.

“I love the idea of a science crib sheet and I would be very happy to put some verbiage together for that as I’m sure would some of our other fabulous scientists.”

Bowlofbabelfish, suggest you collate such material in the ‘other place’. No need to show it to the opposition.

LaSqrrl · 18/06/2018 11:17

It is at this point I chuckle at you JohnnyBoy!
I know you can't help it, but recognise you have The Condition, mkay?
The condition of male upbringing. Which unfortunately makes you think you automatically know better than any woman who has been doing it for years, when you only heard about something last week (figuratively).

Yes, my 'other' weapon... humour.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/06/2018 11:26

So, John, as previously stated, your role is to go talk to other men about self-ID and other trans issues. That's what a man who cares and wants to help would do. The women here are perfectly capable of strategizing by ourselves.

Datun · 18/06/2018 11:34

I’ve read on threads discussing Genderquake and radio interviews that gender critical spokeswomen were not always able or sufficiently effective to get their arguments or rebuttals across, so it sounds like that needs to improve.

john I'm sure you mean well, and I agree with most of what you say, but there are certain things you don't know. This argument has been going on for several years. If not decades.

This is certainly not the only place it is discussed! It might be the only public place, tho.

Every single time a gender critical feminist gets to talk on the radio or TV, there are other women analysing the discourse.

Analysis proves that women are given a fraction of the air time of men. It proves that if the broadcaster is male or a sexist woman, they can disagree with what a woman says, but if a man says exactly the same thing afterwards, they will agree. It proves that men are resistant to what women are telling them, despite campaigns like me too and times up.

It proves that you generally have to give men a 101 course in feminism (evidence-based and using stats) before they even understand what you're talking about. Most men have no idea about the statistic that 98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men, for instance.

Women are pretty used to men finally getting it, and then saying oh my God, why don't you do this, or that.

Because feminism is nothing if not logical so when men to get it it's not difficult to understand. What you have to remember is most men don't get it and most men don't want to get it.

As a recent example advance search threads on here about James O'Brien. Totally blind to the double standards he is using.

JohnSmith7777 · 18/06/2018 12:16

“So, John, as previously stated, your role is to go talk to other men about self-ID and other trans issues. That's what a man who cares and wants to help would do.”

I have already done so, using the various arguments I have read previously on FWR. Some called me transphobic and a bigot, some had already got it, some understood the issues far better than me, some I think I gave pause to thought.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/06/2018 12:17

Keep at it. It's not a one and done kind of thing.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/06/2018 12:24

Good! Keep doing it :)

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/06/2018 12:37

Men are typically oblivious of the structural inequalities until they have them explained. DS1 had a party at the weekend. I was in my room for most of it, but happened to be in the kitchen when a debate broke out, largely about identity politics. One young man said equal pay meant feminism is no longer needed. I pointed out that skills seen as female (care home) generally pay less than those seen as male (building site) and that this is sexism in action. I went on to ask if he thought the American Civil Rights act had eradicated racism and if not, why not. Could he see any parallels with feminism?

He absorbed that and immediately revised his position. Said so. It was great watching his face. He was a bright little boy too.

Men are just not aware and most of them don't care. When you come across a man who is genuinely interested it's easy to persuade them. The decent ones intuitively know it's not their place to tell women how to be feminists.

WanderingWavelet · 18/06/2018 12:47

I have already done so, using the various arguments I have read previously on FWR. Some called me transphobic and a bigot, some had already got it, some understood the issues far better than me, some I think I gave pause to thought

Bravo! Keep at it. Tell other men how to be feminist allies, but please stop telling women how to be feminists. I know you mean well, but ...

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