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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

OP posts:
MsMcWoodle · 15/06/2018 10:07

Agree. Need to keep a presence here. Would be nice to go somewhere that you can speak the truth too though. And plan.

Sarahconnor1 · 15/06/2018 10:09

Agreed. I learned a lot from the posters here while i was lurking.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 10:14

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

Agree with this.

Stilettosandan0venglove · 15/06/2018 10:20

I agree. Keeping the conversation going on here is an important form of activism.

Even if we have to use somewhat stilted language to say what we need to say, it is still worthwhile.

Talk to the lurkers.

SweetGrapes · 15/06/2018 10:24

Absolutely. Long time mostly lurker here.

It is even more important to keep talking hear as it's in the public domain and everybody can read. I hope people will continue using the forum however much we can.

People / women keep getting banned from twitter for saying trans people cannot change sex - only change the outward presentation of gender and some cosmetic surgery.

People get banned for saying the above on twitter but keep going back. I really hope women will stay on and keep the discussion going here in FWR.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 10:31

Someone said on another thread that posting on a private forum would be like shouting into a void which sounds ideal to me.

A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread.

If you're not happy with the new rules a private forum sounds like the place to go.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/06/2018 10:49

I spent many months on the Reddit gender critical subs and didn't find them very rewarding.

The women who post there are overwhelming young and American. Like most Americans online they really aren't aware that other countries exist. Sure, there's overlap, but because of their age and preoccupations a lot of debate wasn't relevant to me. Very few mothers. Then there's the echo chamber effect.

Not saying there's no worthwhile stuff, but I much prefer it here.

boatyardblues · 15/06/2018 10:51

I’m basically quite lazy, so I’m in no hurry to add lots of other fora. I’ll still be posting here. Grin

PositivelyPERF · 15/06/2018 10:57

I agree OP. They will have to ban me, before I leave. I refuse to let men bully me of a site that has helped me through the terminal and subsequent loss of my dear husband, the fight to have my boys younger sister come to live with us, the support and education bestowed on me by the other parents of children with SNs, etc etc. The men that are trying to bully me and other women, including those running Mumsnet, can fuck off. I’m going nowhere and if that means I have to find other ways to describe what you are, then don’t worry, I’ve a fabulous imagination!

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/06/2018 10:58

A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread

Talking about the rights of girls and women and everything that affects them is NOT hateful!

Totally agree OP! #keeptalkingkeepgoing

NightLion · 15/06/2018 11:00

A closed forum would be like an echo chamber, preaching to the converted.

Any ongoing debate should contine on an open forum.

This debate has been enlightening (I count myself as one of the converted), but there should also be a willingingness to openly engage in a respectful debate with paticipants holding a range of views.

Moving the discussion to a closed forum is, in my view, counter productive as it will stifle and silence debate.

I hope the debate stays here.

ChickenMe · 15/06/2018 11:04

A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread

Talk about exaggerating. Surely it would be banned under the new rules if it was that bad

I've just posted on a thread about upskirting-what's hateful and aggressive about that?

Hateful and aggressive aka "disagrees with me and being annoyed which is unbecoming to females"

SweetGrapes · 15/06/2018 11:04

But that depends how you define hateful.

When simply having a word to describe 50% of the population is hateful, that's a step too far. Saw much more hateful things on twitter (burn in hell , die etc type of thing inciting real actual violence) from men but I don't see any ask to police their language.

The issue is when you police language so far as not have a word to describe 50% of the population who share characteristics and have been systemically abused and marginalised for the last 5 to 10,000 years,

Then you are not raising the tone of the debate but are silencing and stopping the debate. You become a part of the problem.

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/06/2018 11:05

Excellent post MrsFogi. I agree with everything you say.

Like PositivelyPERF, they will have to ban me before I leave.

SweetGrapes · 15/06/2018 11:06

Sorry... a bit late off the mark. Need to pop over and get my morning coffee

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 11:06

Daim you flipped out at my mention of AGP this week. You mentally inserted a word in my post which actually was not there in order to change the meaning and to justify getting angry at me. You then complained to MNHQ aboout the word you mentally had inserted and had my posts deleted despite their accuracy.

So your credibility on "hateful, aggressive" is a bit thin frankly in my experience of my posts that you get deleted.

20pencepiece · 15/06/2018 11:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LangCleg · 15/06/2018 11:10

A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread

I agree! So if the male supremacists hereabouts would bugger off, that would be lovely!

I agree this space is an opinion-forming space. There are orders of magnitude more readers than contributors. That extremist transactivists would like to see it shut down speaks volumes. They fear open discussion because the influencing of observers doesn't go their way. They know this. They want us to go. Which is why we must stay!

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 15/06/2018 11:11

A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread

Not more of this lying Daim - honestly, the only one being aggressive and unpleasant to this extent really is you, about us.

I do post on the GenderCrit reddit stuff - and there are some other mners there, and some lovely people - but I agree, the atmosphere just isn't as friendly and familiar as on MN (and the other subs are too numerous and overloaded to participate on - whereas here I can wander around and drop in on other subjects)

Honestly Daim - if you want to see aggressive and unpleasant go and have a go talking on some other forums, try and join in on the trans sub reddits, canvas opinion on one of the more male forums - see if they're tolerant of your continuous castigation for using basic english rather than rolling over and doing as we're told.

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 11:12

@daimbars "A lot of people want to use Mumsnet without seeing hateful, aggressive stuff on every other thread" - absolutely agree, but what constitutes "hateful" and "aggressive" is subjective. I do not consider that the simple act of talking about the potential impacts of self-identification on women and girls to be either "hateful" or "aggressive". Likewise whilst I often find the responses on threads on various topics to be at odds with my views whether general, political, religious or otherwise I do not attempt to stymie them. I simply decide whether to ignore or challenge them.

OP posts:
GoldenBuns · 15/06/2018 11:12

Here, here OP. Mumsnet is vital to give this debate as much light as possible.

Don't take the discussion underground - many, many people here are watching, learning and getting it.

Ireneony · 15/06/2018 11:13

Agree with nightlion. We can't let them push us into the shadows and fringes and shame us for standing up for our rights. The issues we have around self ID and female rights are valid and sensible and fair. If we let them push us away and paint what we're saying as something we need to hide then they've won.

Nuffaluff · 15/06/2018 11:16

OP I agree completely. I rarely post on these types of conversations because I don’t have anything new to add. But I read most of them. I will start to post more often.
There are thousands of people reading on here. That’s why TRAs are intent on getting rid of this space.
I’m sure those in charge of Mumsnet know this: they would get rid of the whole site if they could. They don’t want any kind of debate to take place.
That’s what they say isn’t it. ‘No debate. End of discussion.’
So don’t let the discussion end.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 11:18

Why are you all kicking off about the new rules? They are completely fair enough.

Harmful ideologies often start by the ability to share deep seated prejudices without reprisal.

On this forum praise and flattery is heaped on people for peak transing. You can see how tempting it would be for a person with limited understanding of the issue to be swept along by it all.

The new rules are nipping the hateful language in the bud and restricting the content to critical debate which can surely only be a good thing.

RubyShooFan · 15/06/2018 11:20

I’d prefer it if all the highly articulate posters continued to post here and everybody else including the lurkers boycott everyone advertising on Mumsnet and write to tell them that we’re protesting the erosion of free speech, safeguarding of children and women’s rights. Also continue to boycott Primark/M&S/Topshop/Lush and continue writing to let them know why.

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