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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before you rush off to a private chat/forum and before you post in Feminism chat.......

227 replies

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 10:04

I've seen a number of threads about leaving, moving to other private chat forums and also threads that are about trans/feminist issues but linked to more general issues. May I just ask everyone who wants to "do their bit" to think through the consequences of jumping ship.

The only way that anything will change is if people are talking about the potential issues of self-identification and their impact on women's rights. Talking on private forums is great and a way to release frustrations but is no substitute for firstly continuing to speak in open forums such as MN (albeit with the risk of getting banned for breaching one of the new "rules" but that is not life or job threatening) so that the issue continues to come to the attention of a wider group of people and, secondly speaking to people in RL about the issues. I would also argue that given the recent media coverage not many people will be risking their job by talking about these issues in RL if they do so in a polite way.

It is important to debate the issues on open platforms such as MN and in RL to continue to hone arguments, to get more people thinking about the issues (whatever conclusion they come to) and because there is always a risk of echo-chamber mentality if opposing voices are not present and responded to.

The trans activists are trying to silence women's voices. By moving onto private chats and forums women will have handed them victory and, more importantly, those on those closed forums will be wasting their time talking only to others who have already peak-transed. That may feel great but does not constitute an active defence of women's rights.

We need to keep talking to everyone and anyone (particularly those not yet aware of the issues) and ideally not on the feminist boards - get out there and weave the issues into your posts on other issues elsewhere on mn and everywhere else both online and in RL. The only reason we have any traction (and the reason for MN getting scared and introducing these rules) is because the media are now talking about this - now is the time to ride the wave an talk to everyone and anyone. Now is not the time to be retreating to the back rooms and talking among ourselves.

If you are moving to a closed chat - do it because you need to do so in order to organise real life action (in the way ManFriday is doing) otherwise please, please use your voices on here and elsewhere to continue to raise awareness of the issues.

To this end, when you start a new thread please consider if it could, by any stretch of the imagination, be posted somewhere other than Feminist Chat. Most on Feminism Chat already know about the issues, we need to be talking to people who are not yet aware or who have "hidden" the topic.

p.s. I am a woman who has grave concerns about the impact of proposed changes to the law relating to transgender rights will significantly erode women's rights. I am object to being accused of transphobia for asking questions about the reforms and I do not agree that we need to subvert our language or understanding of biology in order to respect the rights of people who wish to decide on their gender-identity. I urge all women to visit the Fair Play for Women website to read about the issues and form their own views. I am grateful to MN for providing a platform where the issues can be discussed albeit in a heavily-moderataed manner (in contrast to most other social media platforms which have banned or silenced open debate).

OP posts:
BeefyCakes · 15/06/2018 12:22

I'm quite nonplussed by this whole thing.

We as women should be able to talk about issues that affect women, without being accused of hate, violence, transphobia, being called terf's.

I usually just read without commenting, and have commented only a couple of times.

Mumsnet has been there when I felt suicidal, has been there when my dad died, has been there when I needed advice.

And now it feels like brand mumsnet is more important than having the freedom to talk about the issues surrounding self id and what this means for women and girls.

Self id means that Barry from Bournemouth can decide one day that he's now Burta from Bournemouth and have access to what used to be women's only spaces. And does not need to change anything about what is now her body, that in itself is fucking scary.

I'm not sure what to say, as what I would want to say would probably get me banned. So we're now at a point of censorship and the possibility of being banned because of a tiny minority of people don't like that people do not believe the same as them.

A very vocal minority have managed to basically shut down the only forum where women can or could speak freely about an issue that will affect them. I thought Mumsnet had more backbone.

numberseven · 15/06/2018 12:25

Why are you all kicking off about the new rules? They are completely fair enough.

Oops daimbars, are you quite sure? Other trans activists seem to think the new rules are "deeply transphobic".

JuzzaL · 15/06/2018 12:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 12:28

Oops daimbars, are you quite sure? Other trans activists seem to think the new rules are "deeply transphobic".

Is that on twitter? Who?

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 12:29

I want to use Mumsnet without being gaslighted and having to walk on eggshells to appease abusive misogynists.

Alienspaceship · 15/06/2018 12:32

Please don’t anyone disappear. I would have remained in the dark about these issues for women without this forum. We need to focus on moving the discussion into other area of mumsnet. On a personal note, thank you all.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 12:34

We need to focus on moving the discussion into other area of mumsnet.

I think this is key.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 15/06/2018 12:36

If you're not happy with the new rules a private forum sounds like the place to go

Hate giving it air but

The above didnt work for you did it

You didnt like what was being said on threads and you stayed around didnt you

MrsFogi · 15/06/2018 12:39

Mumsnet is of course a vast place these days (gone are the early days when I was able to read pretty much every post each day whilst I was supposed to be doing a very boring job Grin). People of course post because they want to talk, get advice etc and sometimes posting can feel like shouting into the abyss in the hope that there is someone out there (particularly if you are like me and find it difficult to come up with engaging titles for your posts). So, if anyone does post anywhere and feels it may be of interest to those who usually lurk and post on Feminist Chat please feel free to link to your post on this thread and no doubt a number of us lurkers/non-lurkers alike will join your thread if we would have done so had it been posted on Feminist Chat, we may even bring Brew and Cake.

OP posts:
mejon · 15/06/2018 12:39

Another lurker here who's been enlightened by the posts on this forum. I would never have learnt what I have without the very many eloquent and patient posters here. Don't go! Our daughters, sisters and mothers need you.

Dragoncake · 15/06/2018 12:39

Daim, I see the 'recruitment' thing very differently. What I see, in general, is:

Poster arrives." Look at all the transphobia!

Wait, surely that can't be true? (Prisons, puberty blockers, functioning male genitalia in female spaces or whatever)

  • evidence presented - Shit, they've got a point. Surely it can't be that bad?
  • more evidence - Shit. It really is that bad.

Thank God I'm not the only one who sees the problem here. I'm properly concerned. What now?"

Other posters' reactions vary from 'well, durr' to 'glad you've joined us'.

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 12:45

Daimbars

I have some sympathy with "the let's be nice" view point. I may have even have agreed with it when I was younger.

However 20 years plus of lurking and I have noticed that women especially feminists are far more heavily policed in their language and the way they express themselves.

And it is never enough. There is always another word they shouldn't use or opinion they shouldn't voice.

And often the point is not to stop the women using the word or whatever, it is to disrupt the discussion taking place.

As a result, what may be a very nice request to be inclusive really is just a red flag to feminist who have seen this over and over again.

NightLion · 15/06/2018 12:59

Spot on Dragon. That has been my experience.

I'm not experiencing an echo chamber here; I'm experiencing (overall) nuanced, intelligent and rational debate.

If I find myself nodding in agreement, it's because I'm persuaded by a convincing argument.

I hope this forum continues to stay open and respectful.

thatdamnwoman · 15/06/2018 13:10

I agree with the OP. We need to have a public, high-profile space in which to monitor and report what's happening and get that out into a wider world as yet unaware of what's really going on. Going underground has its place but as we know, dozens of websites and pressure groups consisting of a couple of TRAs and their cat are springing up all over the place and making demands. That will gradually dilute and undermine their cause and we need to avoid doing the same thing by splintering.

What we have here on Mumsnet is an established base, with an established brand: this is already the go-to place for the latest info on this issue for those in the media. It has a proven track record of being read by politicians and people who are looking to feel the temperature. At the very least we need to keep reporting all the incursions — the BFI, the 'People with a cervix' moments — here, so that the Daily Mail and the Telegraph and the Times can pick it up and run with it.

What we also need to do is regularly link to here whenever we are in conversation on these issues with other people in other parts of our lives and on other messageboards and FB and so on. We need, for the time being at least, to bite our tongues and just get on with using Mumsnet for what it's good for, while also working elsewhere behind the scenes to organise ourselves in other ways.

If it makes those who are unhappy with the new rules feel better, let's exploit Mumsnet for all we can get out of it. Let's use this tool to work for us.

ChocEggNoThanks · 15/06/2018 13:15

@daimbars Most people come across it by accident while browsing active threads on Mumsnet.

That's a good thing surely? On a site predominantly used by women isn't it important that there is a chance for women to discuss these issues? To see beneath the liberal 'live and let live' veneer? To understand the implications of self-ID which I knew nothing about.

In effect it has been actively recruiting women to take a stance against trans people, often with negative sweeping statements and anti trans rhetoric.

No. I'm not letting that pass without challenge. It's a lie. Only liars are afraid of the truth. These conversations have raised awareness of the potential impact of self-ID legislation which was going to slip by in the long grass unseen, until it was too late and the effects were being felt by women. Women, never men.

I support the right of adult transpeople to live their lives as happily as they can, be that through clothing, cosmetics, surgery etc. I would welcome a third space for transpeople in toilets, leisure centres etc and I will welcome surgically transitioned males into female spaces. Better yet, I would challenge stereotypical toxic masculinity which makes GNC males feel unsafe in male spaces. I will call a transwoman she and use her chosen female name because I am kind, considerate and polite.

BUT the extreme end of the TRA movement are neither kind, considerate nor polite. I will not support a tiny, unhappy group of dysphoric narcissists to claim the word 'women' as their own while I am relegated to being a 'cis woman'. I do not want children herded through a transition process before they can legally have sex, drive or buy a bottle of wine. I do not want my DC to be forced to share space in changing rooms with intact people of the opposite biological sex. A teen daughter forced to share changing space with a male with a hard on, just because he 'feels' female (whatever the fuck that means) or because it's all just one big sexy, ego-wanking thrill for him to be in there.

I do not want male-bodied athletes to be allowed to compete against female athletes. I do not want a male to female transitioner being made a keynote speaker at a woman's film festival on the basis of celebrity and one documentary when there are hundreds or thousands of actual biological women working in the film industry with demonstrable track records.

I do not want women's medical agendas to be dominated by the issues of a tiny handful of transwomen when millions of women are suffering the real (and neglected / taboo) biological consequences of being female - the bleeding, the hormone issues, endometriosis, sexual dysfunction, infertility, pregnancy, menopause, female reproductive cancers.

And I do not want rights for a few thousand transwomen to rise to dominance within feminism when there are billions of biological women still struggling for the right to exist as an equal.

This conversation needs to happen and I'm grateful that it's happening on MN. YY to taking it off these boards and beyond. I'm not a hateful transphobe, I'm a normal, adult woman. I'm a wife and a mother, a human being, who wants a fairer world for as many people as possible. Just not at the expense of women losing their few hard won gains.

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 13:23

ChocEggNoThanks

Great post.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/06/2018 13:26

ChocEgg Thanks for that! I was about to post my own version... I usually do when I see one of the "Posters hate transpeople" posts.

That is the great lie that the TRAs keep on spouting. No matter how often posters take time to type a post such as yours, they just keep on coming back and repeating the same old lie, over and over again!

If you don't object I may copy and past your reply, morph it into my own version and just bang it in to any and every thread that needs the "Usual Rebuttal" - tiresome, but that lie needs to be challenged everywhen it appears!

Alienspaceship · 15/06/2018 13:27

Chocegg
Amazing post

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 13:36

ChocEggNoThanks

Agree with every word.

daimbars · 15/06/2018 13:39

@dolorsit I'm not saying 'let's be nice' I'm saying 'let's be smart and respectful'

For example there are smarter ways of saying you are uncomfortable with the proposed changes to the GRC process without suggesting the majority of trans women are perverted fetishists. You might not think it's transphobic but it sure as hell looks like it to some people, including the advertisers.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/06/2018 13:47

Does anyone have verified figures or data on the proportions of gender dysphoric people/AGP people etc in the general trans population? I suppose the general expansion of definition under the stonewall ‘umbrella’ is going to muddy the waters a bit, but I’m sure there are number out there..?

RubyShooFan · 15/06/2018 13:49

Awesome posts damnwomen and choceggs

littlbrowndog · 15/06/2018 13:50

Chocegg

Great post

daimbars · 15/06/2018 13:53

Cross post with the brilliant response from @ChocEggNoThanks - a perfect example of the GC argument at its best which lays out the issues clearly and doesn't throw all trans women under a bus.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 15/06/2018 13:53

But Daimbars the DSM makes it clear that AGP and transvestite paraphilias are linked to gender dysphoria in males. Women very rarely have paraphilias.

And MtF pop up all over what you could describe as specialist corners of the web telling each other how horny the details of transition make them. I've collected quite a library.

Not being mean, but you simply can't deny what anyone with Google can check so very easily.

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