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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

681 replies

Maryz · 14/06/2018 11:44

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

OP posts:
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6
AngryAttackKittens · 16/06/2018 00:35

Bless, you tried.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2018 00:38

Just watching Atlanta on BBC 2

Its a comedy drama:
'A satirical episode, Alfred features as a guest on a talk show called Montague, being part of a discussion on the media's indictment of black culture and its intersection with the transgender community'

thebewilderness · 16/06/2018 00:41

The comment about MN not being the right place for the transwidows to seek support came across so badly that what, 10 or so people already said so in increasingly vehement ways? Not sure how many have to say it before it occurs to you that maybe they really did think you were being colossally insensitive, Supermatch.

I don't think the question is one of sensitivity.

SupermatchGame · 16/06/2018 00:45

Does the truth always lie somewhere in the middle, or is the latter group just wrong?

Hitting infants is always wrong. That's a straightforward issue.

Sex, gender identity, rights, are complex issues. I think it's often when there are complex issues that the truth lies in the middle.

thebewilderness · 16/06/2018 00:46

I guess the question for MN is more about whether or not this is the right place for it.
SmG referring to the transwidow thread.

Inexcusable.

Ereshkigal · 16/06/2018 00:55

Because people were saying they were hoping that thread wouldn't get targeted by MN - which sounds like there may be some things on there that may break the rules. I don't actually know but I'm curious to find out now.

Go check it out. Then report back here what you think. You know what male abuse is. You told me that you understood my feelings about abuse and thought they were reasonable. i cant believe you wouldn't understand theirs.

BOO32 · 16/06/2018 11:41

I've not read the full thread so apologies if this has already been covered. I am trying to work out what the rules mean.

If TIM is banned because it refers to natal sex, then what is okay about transwomen? It is implying transitioning from male. In fact, as soon as the word trans is used you are referring to the fact that the person's presentation (most likely) won't match their sex (using stereotypes).

Does it also mean that we need to pretend Bruce Jenner didn't exist and Caitlyn always did?

Pratchet · 16/06/2018 11:45

Sex is binary. You either know this or you don't. Where is the 'middle'?

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 11:52

TIM is banned because it refers to natal sex

I thought it was banned because of the 'identified' bit. As in they don't identify as trans, they are trans?

I was told male/female transperson wouldn't necessarily be deleted.

Or has that changed now?

BOO32 · 16/06/2018 12:09

Ah, Baroque that's a different emphasis than in the OP. I think I'll just carry on lurking mostly as it is so bloody confusing.

BeyondSceptical · 16/06/2018 12:39

Afai understand it (though that isn't much tbh...) baroque, male/female transperson is only okay if you are referring to the identified gender of the person and not their sex. Unless it is in a case where their sex is strictly relevant - which is then the bit that baffles me, as surely in FWR it is always relevant what sex the person is. Confused

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 12:46

BOO32. Oh I don't know, I don't think anyone does, even MN. I thought it was ok to refer to biology when it is relevant to the discussion but not when it isn't?

Therefore if I want to talk about why I want a female HCP it's relevent to distinguish between male and female people. But I may be deleted for highlighting a transpersons sex if it's just a discussion about people in a queue at Sainsbury's?

BeyondSceptical · 16/06/2018 12:52

But still, in the queue in Sainsbury's, if the person is behaving in a way that they would have been socialised into, then their sex is relevant.

This is the feminist section, socialisation will near enough always be relevant to the post.

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 12:53

Sorry, cross posts. It seems to take me so long to write posts now.

Yeah, that's the bit I'm Confused with. Sex is at the root of feminism. It's impossible to have a meaningful feminist discussion and not talk about sex. Sex based oppression is the reason why women and girls need feminism. It is all about recognising that.

Ereshkigal · 16/06/2018 12:55

This is the feminist section, socialisation will near enough always be relevant to the post.

Yes, exactly.

BeyondSceptical · 16/06/2018 13:02

I've stuck that very specific point in its own thread in the hope of a response...

TacoLover · 16/06/2018 13:57

I thought it was banned because of the 'identified' bit. As in they don't identify as trans, they are trans?

Yeah this is the way I took it as well. I thought the phrase 'trans identified male' kind of has connotations of pretending or that it suggests that they aren't genuine. I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman because it has the same meaning anyway.

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 15:18

I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman because it has the same meaning anyway.

It depends on the situation, on FWR, or when talking about feminism is general, it leads to the discussion - "feminism is for all women, including TW". I've seen plenty of threads derailed by having to explain why a TW isn't included in the class of women. Other discriptions that don't include the word women make that clear.

Also, the words we are allowed to use are constantly changing - transexual, transvestite, MtF, trans*, tranwoman, trans woman. I believe it's part of the male desire to control women. They are trying so hard to stop us talking about diffences between the sexes, which is essential in feminism.

LangCleg · 16/06/2018 15:42

I don't know why people have a problem with just saying transwoman

Because a) it's compelled speech and b) it appropriates my sex and c) it's just one stage in the endless mission creep.

I. Will. Not. Use. That. Word.

Pratchet · 16/06/2018 15:45

Same. Used to. Not any more.

JoanSummers · 16/06/2018 16:09

I don't believe in the ideology behind 'trans' because I passionately believe that a) women are people and b) therefore gender (aka sex roles) should be abolished.

In my own understanding of the world the concept of transitioning rests on sexist stereotypes and requires individualist solutions that reinforce women's oppression under male supremacist social systems.

To say that a person is a trans woman is to say that a woman is a set of body parts and stereotypes and that a man can therefore transition into being a woman by adopting some of those body parts and stereotypes.

Further once a male person is accepted as a type of woman, despite the objections of women, the idea that woman is what man says it is is reinforced, the idea we have no right to define ourselves or our own boundaries is reinforced. Have you ever heard the phrase "Man Fucks Woman; Subject Verb Object" (Catharine MacKinnon)? Here we have an analogy - Man Becomes Woman; Subject Verb Object.

I am not an object.

And that is why I find it violating and dehumanising to be forced to accept the phrase trans woman.

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 16:22

Have you ever heard the phrase "Man Fucks Woman; Subject Verb Object" (Catharine MacKinnon)? Here we have an analogy - Man Becomes Woman; Subject Verb Object.

Good god, this.

I've always thought it was about using woman as a costume to get something they want, but it's about women being objects and not human.

BoreOfWhabylon · 16/06/2018 16:22

I agree with you re trans woman Joan, but not transwoman. To me it's like seahorse, which is not a type of horse.

Baroquehavoc · 16/06/2018 16:31

But seahorse aren't claiming to be a horse.

We can still state that horses are very different to seahorse, and mentioned those differences, without any fear.

Pratchet · 16/06/2018 16:32

Can we say 'trans rights ARE women's rights?'