I am S p a r t a c u s

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

I am a woman.

I was a girl.

I am an adult human female.

Something a man can never be.

I am a woman.

People refer to me has her and she.

Sometimes said with deep contempt and misogyny.

I am a woman.

Something a male will never be.

I have a vagina and uterus.

I menstruate and have given birth.

I am a mother.

Something a male will never be.

I have been insulted, assaulted, belittled, dismissed, held back, intimidated, stereotyped, terrorised, mocked, shamed, humiliated because I am a woman.

Something a male can never be.

I feel insulted, appropriated, offended, anxious, tense, depressed, hurt and under siege, when a male claims to be a woman or anyone says a male can be female.

It is not civil or respectful to treat me this way.

I am a woman.

I am Spartacus.

15/4/18 Times article, 'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'

(extract)
“What’s worrying to me is the thought-police action around speech and the shutting down of the right to be able to disagree and immediately labelling it as transphobic,” Roberts said.

The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.

Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q?shareToken=b2eb62822dd26aecc0f88653978ed23a

Anyway, I can identify as Spartacus if I want to, can’t I?
I wasn’t born in Greece (or in 110BC), I don’t wear a toga-y loin cloth thing or weild a sword but not all Spartacii have to be Greek, Classical, male and mythologised, and I find any insinuation that they should be to be profoundly TransSpartanPhobic.

15/4/18 Times article, 'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts

All of which is entirely consistent with what is being said now. You can still disagree. You can still discuss concerns around self ID.

Also from the same article:

"The website had told the advertisers that it “works hard to keep the discussions civil” and was determined to let them continue."

Harassment =/= civil.

From Oxford defn:

civil = courteous and polite

courteous = Polite, respectful, or considerate in manner.

Indeed. And you have been a venerable paragon of civility.

There are many of us here who could learn from that. I've never claimed to be perfect.

For me SMG the key word above is 'considerate', I would align this with empathy.

I get mighty pissed off with the lack of both shown by some posters who derail threads discussing serious concerns. [see also a lack of respect]

for example:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3278892-Womans-Place-UK-meeting-threatened-with-device

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3266198-No-True-Transwoman-transadvocates-question-whether-TW-is-genuine-after-said-TW-sexually-harasses-women-in-homeless-shelter

They introduced without a shout
A rule of three strikes and then out
Mumsnet is not our mother hen
That’s why we’re Spartacus again.

With no more TIF and no more TIM
We must say her instead of him
We don’t want mods to guide our pen
That’s why we’re Spartacus again.

They can’t say TERF, they can’t say CIS
Those may be words that we won’t miss
But banning is beyond our ken
That’s why we’re Spartacus again.

So we’ll resist until we bust
We’re our own women – and not just,
Remember some of us are men -
That’s why we’re Spartacus again.

Those who must leave, we wish you well
Keep up the fight, ring out your bell
Come back and join us now and then
We’ll all be Spartacus again.

I am not understanding how you can discuss concerns about self identification and the EA exemptions, without being deleted for transphobia under the new guidelines. Basically, it seems posters are not able to refer to male bodied people as male bodied people if they 'self identify' as female. So, posters now have to pretend that all male bodied people under the trans umbrella are actually transwomen. Which is wildly innacurate. And will also make it seem that we blame all trans people for the pervy ones. People claim we do this anyway, but we have the language to be able to say thats not what is meant.

If crossdressing, transsexual and transgender all come under the same 'transwoman' label, and no other terms are permitted, the dicsussion does not work.

Currently I can say (and I do often say also, I am a namechange if this was not obvious)

I personally have no issue with post operative transsexual women using female areas. Its men who are pretending to be trans who concern me. Along with crossdressing men who are taking the piss.

However, if we have to refer to all people under the umbrella as transwomen, this becomes

I personally have no issue with transwomen using female areas. Its transwomen who concern me. Along with transwomen.

Which is clearly nonsensical. These changes in language just do not work, for many reasons I could go into but I will write essays on this to be honest, so the above example should be able to show that its totally removed any nuance from the argument.

There is keeping the discussions civil, and there is removing peoples ability to actually give their side of the debate in a way that makes any sense.

Its impossible to talk about many areas of feminism, or to dicsuss the impact of transactivism on the lives of women, without being able to name male people male.

MRAs have been trying to ban talk of male violence for ever on here. They have tried many different ways to do this. Seems the really did strike the gold mine with this one.

I think it's really invasive to come to a feminist chat board and goad and harass. It's very predatory.

I used to think it was ok but now I think, really, there are so many places you can chat about your self ID and your feelings of upset. We don't follow you there to goad and harass. Why not leave us to talk about these things that are important to us? I'm so upset. It's so aggressive.

ScarletBegonias

Ooh! Scarlet

I am not understanding how you can discuss concerns about self identification and the EA exemptions, without being deleted

I personally have no issue with post operative transsexual women using female areas. Its men who are pretending to be trans who concern me. Along with crossdressing men who are taking the piss.

You've just said it though? ^ I can't see anything wrong with that sentence you have said there. It doesn't appear to break any Talk guidelines including the new ones?

I think it's really invasive to come to a feminist chat board and goad and harass. It's very predatory.

Yes well hopefully the goaders and harassers will either be pulled into line or removed.

There we are. We see you🙂

scarlet

I am still only on page 6 of the first thread about it, have been trying to get through it for days now

From what sense I can make of the clarifications from Kate, my post can be seen as breaking guidelines. And it appears I had a post deleted yesterday for a very similar post that I am guessing a transactivists must have taken offense to.

Yes, I just said it for now. Given I am kind of getting to the stage where I am not that bothered about being banned anyway. But, it standing now, and remaining there are very different things.

You all know Spartacus was a man, right?

Do you have something against men?

You've just said it though? I can't see anything wrong with that sentence you have said there. It doesn't appear to break any Talk guidelines including the new ones?

Crossdressers are considered trans. To say that they are taking the piss could be framed as an attack on their transgender identity. Not by me of course, just highlighting the problem.

I'm beginning to think you see very little other than your inflexible views.

could be framed as an attack on their transgender identity.

But it wasn't framed as an attack on their transgender identity.

It was framed as crossdressing men who are taking the piss.

Supermatch, you obviously distinguish between levels of trans. But when Stonewall, Tara Hewitt et al define trans as anyone who doesn't match gender stereotypes & we also have the likes of Pips Bunce & Travis Alabanza wanting access to women's spaces when they're feeling that way, how are women meant to know whether a particular person is genuine or taking the piss?

Stonewall includes transvestites in their publicity

Still Spartacus

Woman is not an identity

Stonewall include everyone who doesn't match the gender stereotypes associated with their sex. It's like the LGBTQQIAAXYZ, inclusive to the point of meaninglessness.