Women defining themselves as wife and mother.

[MissBax]

Two separate women fiends of mine who have married in the last couple of years - have changed their instagram handles to "The Smiths" and "Mrs Jenny Jones" (not real names, obvs).
I think it's a real shame that women still feel so defined by the fact they are married. Neither of their husbands have done this - they still have their same accounts documenting beers, food, football. Meanwhile these women have gone from posting about their interests, hobbies, work etc, to just tediously posting about their lives as wives and mothers.
I'm all for women having the choice about how they present themselves of course! But I just think it's sad that they never post anything about themselves anymore, they just seem totally defined as "wife/mother".
I feel we still have a long way to go for modern day women and feminism.

@deydododatdodontdeydo
Most of us are going to work for 50 years, a minority of women taking a comparatively few years out to look after our children shouldn't create a massive pay gap that cannot be closed. To me that is completely illogical, although of course I accept that as things stand this is exactly what happens for SAHMs. The penalty for those few years is completely disproportionate.

The answer that most feminists suggest is to get men to take on these roles so that they are assigned some value. The fact that this is seen as the only way to do this is incredibly sad and depressing.

Bumpity, I don't think it's to assign them value is it? It's to split the deficit you get from time out of the workplace between both parents.
I don't foresee that if more men become SAHDs, employers will suddenly start saying, "well you were earning £25k when you took a break, it's now 10 years later so we'll pay you £35k to make up for it".
At least if more dads SAH then that £10k (hypothetical numbers plucked from nowhere) hit might be split between mum and dad.

I’ve found that the way my friends portray themselves on social media and blogs can really put me off them so I’ve stopped using it. I find it far better to judge someone by my interactions with them in person than by my interactions with them on the internet

Interesting that you feel they shouldnt be referring to themselves as Mrs and yet your username is Miss. Do you feel that you're somehow better feminist if you are not married?

@deydododatdodontdeydo
Yes, you're right about the loss of earnings being split between the sexes, but there's a more general notion that anything that is traditionally female dominated tends to be undervalued. Obvious examples being teachers, carers etc but also examples where industries tend to see increases in pay when men takeover (computer programming) and vice versa. I think there is still a perception in society that anything a man does is intrinsically more valuable than the same work/role done by a woman.

True, bumpity.
BTW, I am not blaming SAHMs for the gender pay gap.
It just seems that if all the many other causes of gender pay gap are solved - women paid less for the same role, discrimination blocking women from promotions, from working in more lucrative industries, etc., there will still be this issue which prevents it ever being 50:50.

There's much confusion between 'defining oneself' and 'describing oneself'.

There are a million attributes that contribute to ones description of one's self. Their relative importance changes over time.

The women referred to in the OP aren't defining themselves
The OP is defining them, and in a limited and judgemental way too.

The women are sharing one aspect of their lives publicly. It is for them to decide their own priorities, not for observers to declare they have the full measure of those women based upon their limited window of observation.

OP I agree, and I understand you aren't denigrating their individual happiness, but rather lamenting the fact that it's so ingrained in women to pursue shedding their individuality to come second to a man and kids. And it's not a conscious choice, I'm sure nobody sits and thinks, hey, I can't be me anymore - it's just so innate that it's "what you do" and instead of inspiring to be the best YOU want to be for yourself in tandem with having a family, you let you as a person take a back seat. It is a choice, but it's one made as a result of insidious patriarchal conditioning, even if it feels free.

It is a choice, but it's one made as a result of insidious patriarchal conditioning, even if it feels free.

I disagree. There is nothing in my life that has felt more innate than mothering my children.

I'm not blaming them for that, I'm just wondering how the gap can ever be closed when this is the case.

That’s just it though you are. Instead of looking at the bigger picture and saying - what needs to be done differently so that there is a space for women who have taken time off to raise kids to re enter the workforce without being financially disadvantaged ?

You are saying it’s because of SAHM that this pay gap persists.

May I ask - who do you expect to raise our children? If it is childcare facilities then I understand why you are approaching this issue from your angle. But if you think parenting is a shared responsibility of both parents then your focus should be on addressing equality and balance right there - with better parental leave and more working flexibility for both parents.

Hope I make sense..?

Obviously it's just my take on it, and evidently many people disagree with me, but seeing your friends lose what I consider to be massive parts of their person is a shame.

They havent lost a massive part of their person.** Maybe motherhood is just atm more interesting than reading a book or going for a walk so thats why they decide to post about that on social media (than their usual pics of oh heres me going for a walk that ive done a billion times before🙄)

@fivelittleduckies: Wrong. Read my other posts. I said all the other things which stop women earning as much as men need addressing.
I am not saying the gap exists because of SAHMs, but a small percentage of it does.

Yes but highlighting the problem is different to blaming SAHM for the problem.

I just don't see how the gender pay gap will ever be closed when some women are defining the purpose of their existence as bringing up children.

This is what I wholeheartedly don’t agree with.

This is what I wholeheartedly don’t agree with.

In what way?
If all other inequalities are solved, and women and men can split childcare and take that hit to their careers and earnings, if there are still some women who aren't doing this, there will still be a small gap.
It may be a gap we are happy to live with though.

In that you are putting the onus on the women for the fact that the gap would still exist...

If everything else was solved (big IF), yes I think that would be true.
But we might be happy with that.

I just get quite frustrated with the view that women who are spending time being SAHM are not feminist or “contributing to a patriarchal society” etc etc

Why is it so wrong for a woman to want to stay at home and raise her children?

I’ve had 3 children and each time I cannot imagine anything worse than having to return to work in the first year of their lives. I just want to be with them - nursing them, raising them. That’s me.

I’ve finished three different undergraduate degrees and a masters degree and I’m also highly ambitious. I’m lucky enough to have had the choice to stay at home and be with the kids as my DH earnings have been adequate to support our family during this time. He is an incredibly hands on dad, but even if he’d wanted to be a stay at home father I wouldn’t have wanted to work in that time. That’s me.

But for others it’s different. Some women can’t wait to return to work after having children. I understand and support that too.

How is feminism not about choice? It’s sad to see so much criticism of women’s choices - coming from other women. This is where I think our greatest downfall is - in not supporting each other despite differing lifestyles and decisions.

Of all the fucking weird threads, this is def taking the

Should we throw all the children into a state run nursery and send all the women back to the workforce, despite some wishing to stay with their children? Is the ability to have children a curse, a deed to be done to maintain the human species, the reality of which should be forgotten and mangaged over as soon as possible?

Or perhaps, some women might enjoy mothering and, gasp, being domestic. Some might go back to work after their first child but stay home after their second or third. Some might have no choice but to return to work even where they might have wished to stay home and some may be forced to stay home where they wished to return to work. Perhaps they are making the best of it, perhaps they love it. Would it be better if they talked of being so bored that they were cracking open the wine after the school run while the kids crawl in the dog poo?

But no. What we get is snipey judgemental one upwomanship.

"to just tediously posting about their lives as wives and mothers".
If you find their posts so tedious then don't fucking read them.

Much better to mind your own business and stop judging women's actions and feminism.

I think so much of feminism lets women down badly when it comes to motherhood.

I am very grateful to have been brought up as a feminist, but the feminism I learnt, led me to internalise messages that the roles women have traditionally taken were somehow inferior. That work is more valuable than mothering, that to continue to pursue your career while having small children isn't simply a choice we should be able to make, but the superior choice.

I think this is capitalism creeping into our values. The idea of value through work. Capitalism doesn't value mothering, caring or love.

Capitalism has systematically broken down our communities, to the point that people don't bat an eyelid about communities being broken up, in the name of money (e.g. cuts) these days. It's now working on breaking down the ties in families that we've always taken for granted and this concerns me greatly.

Capitalism works best when we're a nation of individuals, rather than people with strong family and community ties, able to organise in our own interests.

It's arguably an anti-capitalist act to prioritise loving and caring for your family above work! (Although - I do work as I can't afford not to).

When I became a mother, it was all-consuming. Of course it isn't for everyone and that's fine, but I wish our feminism celebrated motherhood more. Women and men are NOT the same when it comes to parenting. biology makes mothers the primary carer in the early days and to ignore that, rather than to celebrate it, is doing us all a disservice IMO.

Motherhood itself is under attack now, from the trans rights movement as they are seeking to get rid of the term mother completely, to be replaced with "parent" and "pregnant person". We urgently need feminism to stand up for mothers.

Sneering about women who are being open about the demands and the all consuming nature of this period in our lives is not feminism at its best IMO - although I must admit, pre-motherhood, I would have been right there with you as I knew no better.

Are there any feminists speaking about this today, does anyone know?

For me, my lean towards more radical feminism came about because I became a mother. Watching my "value" diminish because I was a mum (and a mum who went back to work full-time very quickly) was a quick lesson in why we need feminism.

@sleepingdragons

I totally agree with you.

Sometimes it feels like feminists are talking at cross purposes. Some think that we need to divorce ourselves from motherhood and our children so that we can be more like men and compete more effectively in the corporate world. A lot of these feminists seem to think that if you're not reaching your potential in the world of work then you are doing a disservice to women and the feminist cause.

Then there is a whole other group of women who describe themselves as feminists also, but want motherhood to be acknowledged and given the importance and value it deserves. They want equality in the workplace but not at the expense of having to give up all notions of motherhood being important and special.

Both these groups seem to call themselves "radical feminists"

It always reminds me of right wing female politicians who start every sentence 'As a wife and mother...'. (Thank you Andrea Leadsom, Sara Palin).

Just in case anyone thinks they are a man hating harridan who actually cares about their job...

I don't see why it matters to you so much. I'm married and a mum. I look my husbands name because I wanted to. I changed my name on my social media, and our relationship status says married to each other since the date we got married. I don't see how it matters to anyone.

If I go through my instagram, before children it was my interests, hobbies and social life and after children it is mostly defined by me being a mother.

You may find this sad but ultimatley that is 99% of who I am at the minute, they are still small so other than very few social occasions and work they are my life and hobbies as I have little time for anything else!