Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

Good question. Interested in answers of pro trans posters.

The issue is less about affirmation and more about not being outed or singled out.

For example if a transwoman uses the male toilet, it will cause confusion. People will ask why a woman is using a male toilet. If the transwomen explains she has outed her self.

Or if a transwomen goes to a pilates class with a group of female friends. If she then has to change in the disabled rather than the female changing room she is being treated differently - and attention is being drawn to her difference. Like telling an overweight woman that she is unsightly and has to use the disabled changing room so as not to offend the other women. If the overweight women had gone to that class with her friends she would probably be very upset.

Males who think they are women are different though. So yes they do want affirmation.

Like telling an overweight woman that she is unsightly and has to use the disabled changing room so as not to offend the other women.

That’s really a bizarre false analogy

Sarah would you like to answer the OP’s scenario instead of going on about fucking toilets?

“The issue is less about affirmation and more about not being outed or singled out.”

So you would go for option B, that affirmation is not a big deal so the trans nurse won’t be offended if someone asks for a female nurse?

The question was answered.

If it helps, there is no danger of being outed in this scenario. The conversations take place in a closed room with only the patient, trans nurse and line manager, who already officially knows the nurse is trans.

But we can add not being outed or singled out into the list of motivations, along with need for affirmation.

So the desire not to be outed or singled out is very strong, and could also cause a conflict of interest like the need for affirmation does as explained in my OP.

Let's post Fortunate's question again, as it seems to have been derailed by an answer about toilets and a pilates class.

• For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Answers in relation to the above question, not toilets, not pilates classes.

I think it's a balance, like lots of things are.

Is the harm done by misgendering something that is worth dealing with for the sake of a patient's peace of mind. I know one nurse friend of mine worked with an old man who had massive issues with her because she's Black and foreign and he kept calling her racial epithets and claiming he couldn't understand her because of her accent and wanted a "proper English nurse". Obviously that was hurtful to her, but she sucked it up and was polite and professional because that's her job, and when he insisted he couldn't understand a word she said, she got an English nurse as he just wouldn't talk to her.

I'd say that's an analogy. Sometimes nurses deal with this stuff and it's hurtful, but they stay profesional. I imagine that's how it must work for trans people working with folk who misgender them. It's upsetting, but at times you just deal and rely on professionalism.

I don't think there's a clear dichotomy between a) it's a big deal and so we must assume trans people can't do their job (which this post seems to be angling for) or b) they can do their jobs and so it's clearly no big deal.

Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Any sensible provider of health care would understand that when someone asks for a female or women hcp to perform a procedure, the patient means female in the biological sense.

Patients needing medical attention isn't the time for transgender HCP to seek affirmation of their gender. It doesn't matter if it outs or others the HCP.

So, do you believe that a patient should be able to refuse a smear test by a black nurse?

Why the derailing gib?

Because Gib prefers to not engage with the direct issue of a woman's consent to being touched by a man being overridden.

Thanks for your answer Whatzat. (especially for not diverting it to pilates classes)

So what I'm hearing from your answer is it's sad for trans people, cos people like the woman in question misgendered them. Not sad for the female who requested a female person to carry out an intimate procedure, for whatever reasons she had? And got a clearly male-bodied person?

So a female requesting a female to carry out a smear test is analogous to a racist.

This is where we are.

This?

Where's the balance you mention? Where's the balance for females?

Where's the dignity, privacy that was written into equality law for females, just as it is for race, sexual orientation?

Where's the balance that means UNICEF are campaigning for sex-segregated places in other countries to allow girls to develop, study, and live?

You're obliterating sex in favour of gender feelz.

I think gib needs to start their own threads so they can talk about what they want to talk about and leave us to carry on with the conversation.

It is male entitlement to demand that transgender identified males be affirmed as women by others while a women's right to affirmation of her right to privacy and dignity is unimportant.

@Whatzat298

I'm not sure wanting a "proper English nurse" over a black nurse is actually the same.

This is about the sex of the HCP.

I think women (and men) needing intimate care, such as a smear test (or prostate exam), should have the right to be treated by someone of the same biological sex. If we're talking about a natal woman having a smear test carried out by a transwoman then....no, the transwoman shouldn't just "deal with" the fact that they are being misgendered. They shouldn't be in the room at all unless the woman with her legs akimbo in the couch has consented to being treated by a transwoman specifically.

Can we stop using race and size as being analogous for sex. Fat women and back women are subsets of women. Transwomen are a subset of men. It is a false equivalence.

I think you're right Fortunate. It's all about validation.

Gib Did you know there are Black females who would like you to stop treating them like they are males? Take my word for it. There are.

So Whatsat298, you would also lean towards option B, that it’s not too big of a deal?

It’s interesring that you took the POV of the nurse in the scenario, rather than the patient.

Black rather than back.

I don't think an adult with a penis should be using a female changing room. I mean, how many times do we have to say NO to this and still you persist in pushing it forward.

If the men's isn't safe because said TW is vulnerable to attack there then why are women not in danger from said penis-bearing TW in their changing room?

I went swimming today and the changing room was communal.
At my old gym it was communal too. No cubicles. So if my 14 year old niece gets changed in there is it right that a penis bearer also does? No. If he thinks he is female it makes no difference.

It's up to TW to campaign for a third space so their penises aren't brought into women's areas. So what if you have to change in the loo?! Not women's problem if the male changing room is too dangerous. Go and tell the men. Go on! Tell men to stop being violent. Tell men to stop having issues with effeminate men. Leave women out of your social experiments

It’s interesring that you took the POV of the nurse in the scenario, rather than the patient.

Yes. The patient's feelings were considered problematic and all the sympathy was for the male person.