Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

Racist and bizarre.

It doesn't even fit.

Having a female body is something I have in common with every other woman in the world. It is a connection whatever country we are from or what skin tone we happen to have. And we are all different from men. Why the fuck can't some people get this?

Very good point pombear. It’s a self serving appropriation of racism.

OldCrone, patients aren't governed by the Equality Act so what is your point?

gib, are you saying there is no protection for patients?

Patients certainly are covered by the Equality Act. The situations are not limited to the examples given.

Now that seems OK to me. I see nothing wrong in saying "This makes me queasy. Have you had a smear test yourself?" if she answers no, then I think that is reasonable grounds to object. You aren't objecting in any way because she is trans, just asking for someone who has had it done.
We aren't objecting because the nurse is trans
We are objecting because the nurse is male

I wouldn't object to a pre op trans man (but since a trans man views themself as man he would probably be happy to be rejected as it would affirm his male status)

^^bold fail🙈

I don't think my feelings about same sex smear tests are 'reasonable'.

It's about wanting someone the same sex as me, with a body like mine doing it. That is more important than whether they have been through it (although I think that helps with trusting there'll be empathy).

Typical belligerent racism from a transactvsit. I don't believe you're in aware that Black women have continually asked TRAs to stop likening them to male people who identify as women.

When I have a pap smear I want to feel not only safe with a female HCP but also to know that she empathises because she's also had pap smears and knows how it feels because she has a vagina, ,ervix and uterus and has lived experience of being female bodied. Female. Not male.

patients aren't governed by the Equality Act

I have no idea where you have got that from.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Single sex services are permitted where:
they are provided in a hospital

*cervix

I've never seen a poster post such nonsensical gibberish as you Gibb - what would be the reason the Trans woman has not ever had a smear test? Would that be because they are biologically male perchance? Therefore if a request is made for a female HCP the Trans woman does not qualify.

"Patients certainly are covered by the Equality Act. The situations are not limited to the examples given."

A patient cannot be said to unlawfully discriminate under EA 2010, although of course they can be victims of discrimination. It is one-sided

Why is that men are so keen to winch open vaginas. What a fucking mystery.

To recap so far

We have 3 people who seem to say that option B is the one. No one as yet for option A.

A reminder of the options:

A) affirmation is vitally important so therefore it should be recognised as a motivating factor in trans people’s lives and activism (applying for a women’s officer role, for example. Or an all women shortlist)

B) affirmation is not vitally important so we shouldn’t be compelled to affirm (and trans people shouldn’t take offence when we don’t)

"We aren't objecting because the nurse is trans
We are objecting because the nurse is male"

That's bigotry. Asking for a nurse who has had it done so can help you understand it is reasonable. There is a big difference

Can we have 3. Affirmation is vitally important to all men and women, trans or no, and should never be compelled because it's authoritarian.

The main reason for many women to request a female HCP for intimate procedures is because many, many women have experienced rape and/or sexual assault in the past. An intimate examination inevitably triggers memories of past abuse, so it’s essential for women to know they can request a same-SEX nurse, and that request will be respected.

The HCP’s need for validation and affirmation of their gender identity does not have a place in this equation. The HCP should be getting validation by delivering sensitive and thoughtful healthcare, and they do that by respecting their patients’ needs and requests.

Obviously not bigotry but we both know that. The only bigotry on this thread is your appropriation of racism.

It's reasonable to not want a man because he is a man and not a woman - even if he has a disorder that confuses him about it.

*We aren't objecting because the nurse is trans
We are objecting because the nurse is male

I wouldn't object to a pre op trans man*

This

A thousand times this. I think we need to keep driving this one home over and over again when accused of transphobia. I’ll happily share space with a transman. I guess a fair few other women would. We aren’t trans phobic. We just don’t want men in women only spaces.

My life isn’t some fucking walk on part in some blokes cosplay experience.

I'm happy for gib to consider sex segregation bigoted. It really underlines the motivation behind the drive to change the law. Men must get what they want and will ensure anyone unwilling to agree is verbally and physically abused.

Having a smear is horrible and I don't want to do it. I have to brace myself and get on with it.

It would be infinitely worse to have a man for a, b, c reasons it would be infinitely preferable to have a woman for x, y, z reasons.

And to be honest i think having a bloke who thinks he's a woman doing it would be 100 times worse than one who didn't. It would be an added disturbing headfuck to deal with when I am already vulnerable having my sex organs painfully poked about with.

I think you've set up a false dichotomy there. Some people find themselves in workplace situations they didn't necessarily plan on. It may be a case of:

Either get on and do the job you're given because you need to earn a living

or out yourself and risk damaging your career and your ability to pay your mortgage.

It isn't necessarily about validation in that particular scenario.

Gibberty shows up here day after day to abuse women who won't agree.