Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

It is very simple. The only thing which should matter is the professional skills and training of the nurse. His/her personal life is just that - personal - and unless there is misconduct his/her personal life is irrelevant.

We know how many times the perp gets away with abuse before they are caught, Gibber. But nice try.

I say that as a woman who has been in stirrups while a male doctor did an intimate examination.

So? You don't mind men doing it. Other women do.

know not now!

'they need to not work in that field.'

We do not want to hear about your dilation, Gibber. Really we do not.

'I say that as a woman who has been in stirrups while a male doctor did an intimate examination.'

@GibbertyFlibbert That's your experience. Great for you. I also had males attending at my child's birth. But I am not willing to sell down the river my sisters who do not want males attending to them.

@bd67th anothe obese woman who has never been asked to get changed elsewhere and is not a man!!!

The only thing which should matter is the professional skills and training of the nurse.

Gibber do you think women should have the right to request a female nurse or doctor?

Regarding the A and B, it's a false option to me...

A) affirmation is vitally important so therefore it should be recognised as a motivating factor in trans people’s lives and activism (applying for a women’s officer role, for example. Or an all women shortlist)

I think it may well be for some trans people a driving force to be validated. (Why else would make a trans woman in Canada tie up a rape crisis centre for 12 years trying to volunteer there against the wishes of the centre!).

Allowing people to take roles they are not legally allowed to take is wrong. It would definitely validate my view of myself as a pretty 20 something young woman if someone would pay me to be a model... no one is going to do that though!

B) affirmation is not vitally important so we shouldn’t be compelled to affirm (and trans people shouldn’t take offence when we don’t)

...whether it is important for an individual or not to feel validated - I think we as free citizens of our country are not required to validate other people's feelings. We need to act within the law, unless the law becomes unworkable and then we need to work to change it. But always in a peaceful way. I think not all trans women will feel like these terrible TRAs so not all will be doing these things for validation. Not all trans people will be the same.

Female is a total newspeak definition to Gib.

@SarahAr Re trans women using the loos and being outed: we can tell. There's a trans woman who gets my train sometimes, spotted her first time I saw her. You are almost certainly already "ouf", you just don't accept it.

I want a world in which same-sex couples can hold hands on the street. As my ex-gf and I found out when men threw open drinks cans and shouts of "lezzas" at us, the world isn't there yet. I want trans women to be able to be out and proud of their own identity, instead of trying to pinch femaleness, and to be able to use the loo for their sex safely, but the world isn't there yet. I'm not sure how we get there, but I can tell you now that you won't get there by intimidating women, invading our spaces, and denying biology.

'...but I can tell you now that you won't get there by intimidating women, invading our spaces, and denying biology.'

And the more that TRAs deny biology the less we females feel safe with the idea that anyone identifys as a woman is one. With old school transsexuals I was not worried, now I am. It's not necessarily about safety (although sometimes it is). Sending in a trans woman to do a smear when a female has been requested is a massive insult to the woman, it is saying we know what you need but we think we know better!

want a world in which same-sex couples can hold hands on the street

It's bizarre and just awful that we don't have this, even with same sex marriage. It's still unusual to see same sex couples holding each other in public. Even though it's so celebrated with #pride etc. It's like with women generally, empowerment is so celebrated and the talk of the town, but women still get treated like nothing.

For the record Gib I don't need anyone to help me understand a smear test seeing as I am of the sex that actually needs one.

I'd love you to use that patronising twaddle on a man who has requested a male HCP to do a prostate examination.

GibbertyFlibbert

If a transwoman has AGP and is getting aroused by their validation as a woman HCP whenever they practice, is it still bigotry for the patient to refuse a smear from them?

This reminds me of Kimberly Nixon. So desperate for validation that he dragged Vancouver Rape Relief through expensive court processes in pursuit of his right to access rape victims. And bully boy Morgane Oger demanding the place is shut down because they won the right legally to refuse to validate a transwoman's 'womanhood'.
The problem is, lip service and pronouns aren't enough. It drives TRAs mad that no one actually believes they are women. The one thing they can't control is our thoughts, and that's crazy making. Even with Bill C-16 and compelled speech, they can't control our thoughts. They will go to insane lengths to compel validation. Bless Gibber for trying, but it's never going to work. Men cannot change sex. There is literally no guff you can spout that will make it true. No law can alter reality.

Now that seems OK to me. I see nothing wrong in saying "This makes me queasy. Have you had a smear test yourself?" if she answers no, then I think that is reasonable grounds to object. You aren't objecting in any way because she is trans, just asking for someone who has had it done

Nice of you to finally understand the point. A person without a cervix, a person who may well have a penis is a transwomen ie. a man.

All woman - certainly all women HCPS - have had a smear

Hoist by your own petard

Just to make it crystal clear: no transwoman has had a smear

All woman (certainly all HCP women) has had a smear

Now that seems OK to me.

Do you understand that you are trying to negotiate the reasons acceptable to you for a woman to say no to having a man shove a speculum into her vagina?

So many great lines in this thread! Cosplay!

Ironic, isn't it, that a movement that touts itself as being all about finding one's true identity and genuine self is fully based on validation by others.

that too bewilderness

I wish that people would understand that I can sympathise with a person's distress, but that at the point I have to accept their delusion when it's to my detriment, I draw the line

I am not transphobic

Mamaryllis. That's why gib calls Vancouver Rape Relief odious. Because a rape relief organisations doesn't affirm a TIM gender identity at the expense of women, to gib it's odious.

It drives TRAs mad that no one actually believes they are women.
The one thing they can't control is our thoughts, and that's crazy making.

That was the takeaway from Celebrity Big Brother, wasn't it?

No matter how hard they try to make it penetrate, ultimately everyone knows the truth.

I think it was, Empress.
That moment when the transgender person realized that no one there viewed them as a woman and they realized that they could not make them believe, no matter how loud they shouted.

The patient's needs (including their psychological needs)are paramount. If a HCP is unable to handle that then they need to look for another job, one that doesn't involve giving intimate care to people.
Both men and women are entitled to ask for a person of the same sex when it comes to intimate care, quite rightly too.
Saying a woman is 'bigoted' because she doesn't want to receive a smear test from a TIM is just one step away from rape culture and the cotton ceiling. A woman's private parts are not an equal opportunity area.

No I am saying that if a patient refuses to be examined by a black nurse that is prejudice and should be unacceptable. If a patient refuses to be seen by a trans woman, that is comparable prejudice and equally should he unacceptable.

How the fuck is that comparable prejudice? The black nurse is a woman, the trans woman is a man.

Women have the right to say no to men. It is essential that that right is preserved.

I have had a male at the birth of one of my children. It fidn't bother me at the time or since

I have the right to he treated by anyone I choose.

I would preferred to be treated by a female.
I would consent to he treated by a man in some cicrumstances.
I would not consent to being treated by a TW.

There is a time when i wouldn't have been bothered but now i understand more about their motivations there is no chance.

As always, any TW who insists their right to perform a smear (for example) overrides patient comfirt and sense of safety is the very sort of person who ahould not be allowed anywhere near women.