Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

If affirmation is vitally important then it should be recognised as a motivating factor in trans people’s lives and activism (applying for a women’s officer role, for example. Or an all women shortlist)

A very good point

And we know that affirmation is vitally important and there is a conflict of interest otherwise they would not be targeting everything women-only. They would seek unisex wherever possible if it wasn't an issue.

gib. We are talking about women's ability to have female HCP. Keep up.

The issue becomes even worse with vulnerable people. I had a client years ago with cognitive issues (being vague) who HATED men. Screaming, spitting, non-compliant rage. What then? What about nursing homes and intimate care in the home?

It's not the same as asking for a straight doctor at all.

That's a stupid comparison.

Woman are abused by men, male medical professionals have abused patients in the past. That's why you have the right to a female and/or third party present.

Saying a transwomen counts as a woman takes away actual females right to request an actual female do intermate exams.

Are you seriously trying to argue that a Black woman must submit to being examined by a white male if that white male identifies as a woman?
Eff you.

"And we know that affirmation is vitally important and there is a conflict of interest otherwise they would not be targeting everything women-only. They would seek unisex wherever possible if it wasn't an issue."

Why aren’t you seeking unisex everything? Because you are a woman, I assume. Same with trans women. It's not about validation but simply flows naturally from their womanhood

You are appropriating racism. It is not in any way comparable unless you are suggesting that black people are vastly more likely to commit abusive offences than white people. By comparing women not wanting to share spaces with men to white people not wanting to share spaces with black people, this is exactly what you are doing and it is racist. Stop. Now.

'womanhood'

Boak

And on the issue of gay HCPs. Mine is a lesbian. I know because she very very unsubtly dropped it into the conversation before she booked my smear. I assume she does this so homophobes can opt out. Because patient comfort is more important to her than affirmation.

It's always a.Black.woman used in the pro-trans-IDed male rights to access female-only areas, isn't it? And this is just another version of the transactivists' usual likening Black women to "trans women". Please do stop that.

"Are you seriously trying to argue that a Black woman must submit to being examined by a white male if that white male identifies as a woman?
Eff you."

No I am saying that if a patient refuses to be examined by a black nurse that is prejudice and should be unacceptable. If a patient refuses to be seen by a trans woman, that is comparable prejudice and equally should he unacceptable.

It's not about validation but simply flows naturally from their womanhood

So you would be option B then, that affirmation is not that big of a deal?

Yes that is racist and you are appropriating racism by equating it to a woman not wanting intimate care from a man. You have been asked to stop. It is racist. Stop.

Ah! Cross post with Pratchett'

"Please do stop that."

The comparison should make you uncomfortable. Transphobia is just as abhorrent as racism.

It's interesting, isn't it.

Because in all other discussions, we're told that 'trans' is just a prefix like tall-woman, black-woman, disabled-woman.

But in these types of examples the playbook goes straight to the race.

Females are females, whatever their race, height, ability, lack of/presence of womb, ovaries.

Males are males. They aren't females/women. It's not the same prefix.

Sorry, not sorry.

Your racism and misogyny is on all the threads for everyone to see, Gibberty.

I'd infinitely prefer a lesbian woman do my smear to a gay man.
For me it is nothing about sexuality and everything about being the same sex.
Ie- performed by someone who knows what it is like to have a cervix, to have been through the indignity of a cervical smear, to know what it is to have a female body in a male dominated world. That kind of thing.

So....It's basically the same as racism for a female to object to being intimately examined by someone male ?!?

No it isn't

Am I not allowed to refuse males any more? I don't care how said male looks..his self identity does not stop him being male.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand no all over again....

As an aside I have always wondered why so many men are gynaes. I hate being examined by them and will be requesting a female next time as the last one I had seemed pervy

It makes me uncomfortable to be talking to a poster expressing clearly racist views. Your comparison is racist.

If 'trans' is just a prefix to 'woman', just like 'tall', 'black', 'small', 'asian'.

Surely an analogy to 'what if a tall woman showed up to do your smear test'? would work as an example, if you weren't trying to pull on people's anti-racism and empathetic natures.

Stop appropriating racism to gaslight your way into access to women's spaces, places, and, quite literally, vaginas.

"For me it is nothing about sexuality and everything about being the same sex.
Ie- performed by someone who knows what it is like to have a cervix, to have been through the indignity of a cervical smear, to know what it is to have a female body in a male dominated world. That kind of thing."

Now that seems OK to me. I see nothing wrong in saying "This makes me queasy. Have you had a smear test yourself?" if she answers no, then I think that is reasonable grounds to object. You aren't objecting in any way because she is trans, just asking for someone who has had it done.

If a patient refuses to be seen by a trans woman, that is comparable prejudice and equally should he unacceptable.

Wrong. If a patient refuses to be seen by a transwoman, it is her right to do so using the exemption in the Equality Act.

This example is given in the Equality Act. It would also apply in the scenario of wanting a same-sex HCP.

A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7/5/3

The law recognises that transwomen are men.

It’s not necessarily that women are not wanting a male to examine them because they might be assaulted by the HCP, it’s sometimes because it can trigger trauma symptoms from abuse or violence.

I recently had to check that one of my patients absolutely would have smear done by a female otherwise the patient would not have the test due to a history of frankly shocking sexual abuse.

She has a right to have her care from a women. It’s necessary because otherwise she cannot have the test. It would be harmful. It is not a preference.