Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

Patients needing medical attention isn't the time for transgender HCP to seek affirmation of their gender. It doesn't matter if it outs or others the HCP.

This. The HCP needs to remember what the purpose of their job is. It's to provide care to patients. They can get their affirmation when they're not at work. If they can't deal with this, maybe they need to think about getting another job which doesn't involve providing care for vulnerable and/or sick people.

difference. Like telling an overweight woman that she is unsightly and has to use the disabled changing room so as not to offend the other women

It's not that we are OFFENDED (TRAs have the monopoly on that) it's that penises rape people and vulvas do not therefore we don't want penises in women's spaces because it is a safeguarding issue

And I have never known an overweight person being told they are unsightly and have to use the disabled changing room.

This is gaslighting to the extreme. Having a penis = any difference females have amongst themselves.

Have these people ever lived amongst women!

Re the nurse surely it's more of an issue for a female to be intimately examined by a biological man under the guise that he is female and therefore no chaperone would be required than it is for a transwoman not to be validated. The latter involves hurt feelings but the former shouldn't even be allowed

And realised I'm derailing myself: back to Fortunate's question:

• It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Does the female have to capitulate to an smear test by a transwoman to validate their feelings? Or does an intimate biological exam trump the feelings of men?

although i very much recognise the black nurse scenario posted by whatzat, race analogies don't quite work.

yes the old man was being racist. but the woman who asks for a female bodied person to perform her smear test isn't being sexist. it is the class of men who have the structural power over women, just as white people have structural power over black people. there are times it would be appropriate for a black person to request to see another black person - as a counsellor perhaps. there are times it is appropriate for a female to ask that she sees another female and a smear test is one of those times. genitals are often the area of the body targeted in sexual assault. it is reasonable for a female to want to exercise a degree of consent over who touches them.

I don't see why the woman's affirmation is of less value than the trans identified male, and vice versa. No pronouns here.

And if, like so many of these 'transwomen' are saying now, that they've been women all their lives and have the same lived experience of females.

Surely they'd empathise and understand the lived experience of women who request biological females for their smears, understanding the concerns and feelings of those women who feel uncomfortable in the presence of 'female penis'? Just as the transwomen can't exist in male-spaces as they feel uncomfortable, so we all need to budge over as females?

Oh, wait now...

I feel that incorrect pronouns use is deeply offensive and demeaning to me. Validate that.

I don't think there's a clear dichotomy between a) it's a big deal and so we must assume trans people can't do their job (which this post seems to be angling for)

To be clear, I’m not saying this hypothetical nurse can’t do their job. I’m saying that if the affect of refusing to affirm gender identity is as severe as I have been led to believe on the other thread, then there are certain aspects of the job that will have the potential to cause a conflict of interest between this nurse and a patient. Namely, any aspect that provides a means of validation and affirmation for the nurse, such as providing a smear test to a woman.

mobile.twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/961014477662470144?lang=en

Clip from newsnight interview about identity politics / individual affirmation replacing politics of interests.

i think it is an excellent question btw

If the nurse is identifiable as a man to the point the patient can tell and be confident enough to ask for a female nurse, then surely the transnurse would know that people can tell she's a man and so shouldn't be offended when she's called up on it.

Like these really manly transwomen must know they don't look like actual females. It's not like they left the house thinking they looked 100% female until someone accidentally misgendered them and called them sir.

I think the problem is these are hypothetical scenarios. Each trsnsperson is different and will react differently to the given scenario and will have a different view on being misgendered.

Too many transgender identified males will abuse their authority by claiming the woman refused treatment if they request a female and the transgender identified male takes the case.
That is what has happened and is not hypothetical.

"Why the derailing gib?"

Not derailing. It is very reasonable to point out that this is parallel to a patient refusing to be treated by a black nurse. You might find the comparison uncomfortable because it highlights the bigotry inherent in the question itself.

Or if you prefer, a male patient saying "I won't be treated by a gay doctor - I don't feel safe."

How would somebody instantly know the sexual orientation of a HCP? Whereas It’s very easy to instantly tell the sex of someone.

I think it's odd for a male to join a pilates class with female friends and think they are the same, should be viewed to be the same and access the same changing facilities

Reality check required! Stop this ridiculous make believe. Males are not female. Have some respect for women's boundaries and suck up your dysphoria until you are back in mixed space again.

It might be vaguely analogous if the woman with her feet in stirrups was calling the trans nurse names. And saying the nurse's male voice was unintelligible. But she wasn't. For it to be analogous it would be a black patient asking if it would be possible to see a black nurse and being sent a white nurse.

It's still not a great analogy but closer.

I don't know where the idea that it is unusual for a women to ask for a female hcp has come from? It's not something out of the ordinary, it will happen every day for every gp practice.

It's racist to appropriate racism and deeply deeply deeply racist to compare black women to trans-identified males. Please stop.

Yes, this is a real scenario that has happened at least once that I am aware of, so not really hypothetical.

But my question is broader than just this scenario really.

If affirmation is vitally important then it should be recognised as a motivating factor in trans people’s lives and activism (applying for a women’s officer role, for example. Or an all women shortlist)

Or if affirmation is not vitally important then we shouldn’t be compelled to affirm.

*For it to be analogous it would be a black patient asking if it would be possible to see a black nurse and being sent a white nurse."

A white nurse who was claiming to be black.

It's not parallel to compare to race

Black women are women
Asian women are women
Fat women are women etc

Transwomen are not women. There are safeguarding issues with the TW nurse being accepted as female and therefore no chaperone being required - where are such issues with the black female nurse? Are black women men now?!?

"It's racist to appropriate racism and deeply deeply deeply racist to compare black women to trans-identified males. Please stop."

It is not racist because I am saying that the patient would be wrong to object to a black nurse and that's the same if a patient objects to a nurse who is gay/lesbian or trans. As I say, the question is loaded with bigotry.