White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

Wowsers oldman As repulsive as I find your advice to keep quiet about feminist gubbins so as not to provoke him, I think following it would really please him. I think it would please most men - I have honestly never met any men like the ones described on this thread who listen, research pay it anything more than lip service etc. I'm not saying they don't exist but they aren't common. I haven't led a sheltered life.

I just need to keep my mouth shut, repress all the injustices I see and experience and avoid the subject. I know that sounds sarcastic but that would truly work, it really is what I do most of the time anyway.

The problem is the effect that has on me. I have long experience of being what people want me to be, it just overwhelms occasionally, hence the post.

I don't really know what to do, splitting up is sooo much harder than writing ltb.

I know I shouldn't have to prove the scale of sexism to him but it's worth a shot. There have been a few great links but any up to date related articles/studies anyone has easy access to would be much appreciated. I found that article about how women only earn 1% of wealth but it was quickly debunked. I can't find much with accurate stats about wealth, power, property distribution etc.

Though I really don't appreciate the erroneous insights into our relationship to conclude all blame for disharmony is purely mine due to my threats and sabotaging.

Have to second BIWIs bollocks there. So to speak.

I just need to keep my mouth shut, repress all the injustices I see and experience and avoid the subject. I know that sounds sarcastic but that would truly work, it really is what I do most of the time anyway.

Well you're making his agreeing with you on your beliefs a condition of the relationship. That's rather different from "repress all the injustices." You said that you believed in excluding men as a measure you approve of. Is it really unreasonable for him to debate with you on that? Or to react negatively when you keep forcing such a debate on him?

You've elsewhere said that his responses "seem reasonable in the moment". So maybe they are. You seem unwilling to accept he may be right in any of what he says. Your beliefs may or may not be correct but you seem to be forcing him into a position of either trying to avoid the subject for the sake of the relationship or agreeing with you. And you are denying him the ability to avoid the subject. Are you actually engaging with him in good faith here and being willing to honestly consider his point of view? Or are you solely focused on making him agree with you? Because he doesn't seem to be doing the same to you.

Though I really don't appreciate the erroneous insights into our relationship to conclude all blame for disharmony is purely mine due to my threats and sabotaging.

The impression I got from your post is that it's you who is making political agreement a condition of your relationship and demanding he agree with your views.

The problem is the effect that has on me. I have long experience of being what people want me to be, it just overwhelms occasionally, hence the post.

How is he forcing you to behave in any specific way? The impression I got was he simply didn't agree with your view on the subject and perhaps resents being judged on his sex and race.

Hi Boodebeep, It was interesting to read some of your insight into an aspect of your relationship. Personally, I think you two are potentially a good match for each other - you don't blindly agree with him and appear to challenge him in an acceptable, thought-provoking way. By 'acceptable' I mean that in a way that he will likely reflect upon - as opposed to just getting defensive - as we do when we feel someone is just attacking us. I agree with you when you said that it's hard to find wonderful men with spot-on views - in my experience - it's good to find a man who can at least take on board and consider another viewpoint! They may then change their original position - or maybe they won't - but I am happy (most times) if someone can at least hear and respect my viewpoint.

I am not making political agreement a condition of our relationship. Never ever been said anywhere by me. Others have said leave, not me and it's never been threatened to him by me.

I also do not 'keep forcing this debate' on him. Where on earth are you getting this from? I believe in positive action, he doesn't. I believe his reasons for his decision don't reflect reality or stand up to scrutiny. He shut me down with the title.

Make him agree with me...demanding etc? Just untrue.

You are advising me to act differently to a way I have never acted. Pointless.

Thank you Twinkul I like to think he might reflect on some of the things I said, he does about other things but it's just frustrating. He has done zero research or reading around the issues, has zero experience of sexism or racism but is still has such conviction that we are in an equal meritocracy and indeed women have advantages etc.

It was interesting what people earlier in the thread said about what puts women off tech jobs. He is very senior in a tech job but doesn't do any hiring. He is aware of all the schemes to get women into the job, sees colleagues talking about wanting to get more women in etc. but they don't materialise. He concludes women would have an easy ride to the top with these schemes, they maybe don't want it. I explained how it starts soo much earlier than that and how the environment was difficult etc. and he really seemed to get it. But then no further and this. Maybe he never did.

You are advising me to act differently to a way I have never acted. Pointless.

I seem to have read in to your views what other people are saying then. Apologies.

Is he one of those 'marriage is just a piece of paper' types, too? Beware,

Marriage isn't really in the equation. He is a lot wealthier than me and it's me who is terrified of being labelled a goldigger rather than him not sharing.

He has parroted stories about men being "fleeced" in divorces etc. which we do end up debating about but now both agree that marriage is a contract that merges assets and if you don't want to take the risk of losing what used to be 'your' stuff, then don't do it.

No children together.

Do you think there's a link expat with marriage reluctance/sexism?

So through comments about women he’s got you questioning yourself.

Do you want marriage? children?

His attitudes don’t sound good at allX Although I agree, sadly not at all uncommon.

Even my DH, who isn’t especially great at “getting it” “gets” the problems in his male dominate field of work, and why marriage is a (partly) financial commitment!

I've had marriage and children. I want to remain independent and not rely on his wealth. Marriage is a financial contract and I don't deserve anything he's earned by himself. I don't facilitate him.

Maybe one thing in your favour is that these things often don't come out until you've got 2 kids, unmarried and you're a SAHM financially dependent on him. At least you know his opinions (and in some ways it is good that he isn't just parroting "right-on" views to keep you onside, without really believing it). It means you can have debates on things, but also go forward with your eyes open.

'I don't facilitate him.'

You do. But it's a very good thing you've already had the marriage and kids and don't want them with him.

Um, having a little rethink. At first, I couldn't understand why some of the earlier posts were urging you to leave him - it seemed a little extreme. But sometimes people just 'get' situations fast than I do. I'm now wondering if there's some link between his thinking that women could just do better if they really wanted to now that they have all these opportunities afforded to them (paraphrased) and his not wanting to marry you??? His thinking might be that he came to the party with more - that he rightly earned off all on his own back (blah blah) - and there you are with your (comparatively) poor self - not making the most of said opportunities - wanting to fleece him. Who would label you a gold-digger??? In my opinion, you're coming to the 'party' with loads. I wager, more commonsense and compassion than him - for a starters.

How do I facilitate him?

I (or him) have never, ever said he doesn't want to marry me??!

I am not poor and I don't need anything from him. I haven't given up a career for him, raised his children, do more housework, work fewer hours for him etc. Why should I get his money if we divorced?

He does actually think I can better myself and wants to help me do so. He is right really but the timing isn't right just now.

He doesn't think I'm out to fleece him. That's evidenced.

I would label myself a goldigger if I took what I hadn't earned/wasn't wilfully given and that would hurt my pride.

Lots being assumed here. When I said he was generally great, I meant it. I am not naive or new to feminism. Neither am i blind to his faults but he is not what is being made out here. It makes the advice useless.

If, should the relationship continue medium to long term, you plan to live separately etc that’s one thing.

But there would be risks in cohabiting with someone with these kinds of attitudes, which suggest he’s sexist.

Also suggest avoiding your DC - whatever their ages - hearing that kind of bullshit from someone you’re dating.

We do live together.

He does actually think I can better myself and wants to help me do so

How kind of him. And don't you see that a patronising in any kind of way, given what else you've posted about him?

^ I have to say I agree with BIWI there. It could just be the way you've worded it but it sounds a bit Victorian gentleman.

Yeah, that definitely is looking for stuff that isn't there.

I am working below my capabilities and potential at the moment due to other the benefits the job has. I have a moan occasionally and he offers to help. Either capital for my own business, setting something up together etc. I absolutely would need help to do that and he's offering. He has been helped by his ex in the past. It's what couples do. He wants me to be the best I can be and better myself...for me.

I've done a lot better than I am currently due to children. Not his. He knows I can do it by myself, he isn't patronising me and doesn't push it or try to take over.

His sexist attitudes are a bigger concern when you live together IMO, especially if your DC are under 18 and/or live with you.

Any housing or financial help he promises or gives you to support your work could be withdrawn at any time, at his discretion, unless you have a legal agreement in place saying otherwise.

Would your views on marriage and finances change should you still be living together in five years, ten, if he became unwell and you were his carer (or vice versa)?

Your own words:

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have

he isn't personally sexist (beyond normal socialisation) he doesn't seem to realise how many other people are. He hasn't experienced it. It's just frustrating he won't listen when I tell him it exists and how.

He is in denial about the scope of sexism as it doesn't affect him

He is fully aware of the history of sexism, just doesn't think it's still an issue.

He isn't a misogynist, he is ignorant though and not aware of his sexism. He doesn't want to be aware either as he is an incredibly intelligent person but won't turn that focus to feminism

He has done zero research or reading around the issues, has zero experience of sexism or racism but is still has such conviction that we are in an equal meritocracy and indeed women have advantages etc

Are you really so sure this man is someone who thinks you are his equal? Or are you just trying to persuade yourself?

LTB

Yes, I won't ever rely on a man because it can just be taken away, even if you are married, as I found out. When the timing is right I might accept help but will always remain able to walk away and support myself and dc. It's common sense.

If we got to the stage we were making life altering, financial changes for each other then of course our perspectives would change, yes.

I think all that shows that yeah, he clearly does think I am his equal, he just doesn't believe other men don't.