White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

A useful link:
hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men

Oh dear. Do what you want with your own life, OP, but just be aware that you’re going out with a man who thinks women, i.e. you, are inferior to men, i.e. him. If you’re happy with that then carry on. Perhaps you believe the same, deep down, if you’re willing to sell yourself so short.

Btw “men don’t have to think about this” is no excuse. My male DP and all my close male friends have no trouble grasping the reality that we don’t live in a meritocracy and that the current level of representation of women and minorities does not reflect their ability. Plenty of white people (are you white OP? If so you know this to be true) also don’t “have” to think about it but nonetheless manage to comprehend that they have advantages PoC don’t have, and that this is unfair.

Sorry to be so blunt but women putting up with this absolute crap drives me mad. lt ultimately lowers the bar for all men as they have no pressure to not be total cavemen. Why bother when they can always find a partner no matter what idiotic views they express? Grow a spine and ditch him.

If you can't see how you're enabling his POV then that's really worrying.

Stop being so 'considerate' about his views. Start getting angry with him.

There's no excuse in this day and age for a man to have these views. If you said he was in his dotage, then perhaps so. But I'm guessing that's not so?

Men often become more feminist when they have a daughter, in my experience.

OleannasWimple I know this might sound totally crazy, but maybe women should be aiming for a partner who doesn’t need to have a daughter to see them as an equal?

OP I read that title and though ?"BAHAHAHA ... NEXT"

and then open this and find out it is about your supposed other half.

Do you really want to hitch your wagon to someone who thinks like this?

He's not a total caveman and he doesn't think women are inferior.

He is fully aware of the history of sexism, just doesn't think it's still an issue. Shocking to my ears now, but the exact same view I had ten years ago. My experiences and solidarity with my own sex led me to open my eyes, read around, see and understand it. Been on this board for years.

I am hardly selling myself short or enabling a misogynist or putting up with absolute crap. I was expressing my frustration, looking for solidarity, not asking to be told deep down I might think women are inferior and I'm spineless.

Excellent points Crow. He thinks that left to the likes of him and me it would be a meritocracy...Doesn't grasp that there are so many sexist in positions of power.

Really good link slightly thanks.

Unsure how I am enabling his point of view by challenging it.

He's not a total caveman and he doesn't think women are inferior.

He is fully aware of the history of sexism, just doesn't think it's still an issue

What a total oxymoron! AKA a total twat.

Of course he thinks women are inferior. Why are you trying to defend him?

I know this might sound totally crazy, but maybe women should be aiming for a partner who doesn’t need to have a daughter to see them as an equal?

Lots of us have posted in the past that we have become more radical in our feminism as we have got older, and particularly after having DC (where the penalty of being female really starts to hit). It's the difference between being able to pay lip service to the concept of equality, and then having the lived, personal experience that illustrates how far away from equality many of us still are.

I'm giving men the same courtesy of recognising that they may go through a similar process. Unless they have much younger siblings / close family members, they are unlikely to have observed the pressures and social expectations that come into play when our daughters are really very young. They might have been told about these, sort of know what they are. But it's not the same as going to buy cricket kit and only finding "Boy Small" size available. Or watching children's TV and considering the role models that are being held up for their DD. Or learning that their DD has been called a slut at school because she kissed her boyfriend.

identity politics tells individual poor uneducated men that they have power they definitely don't have

The problem with the current iteration of IDpol is that it only ever pays lip service to class as an axis of inequality. And then wonders why the working class men tell it to fuck right off.

It’s obviously rattled you or you wouldn't have posted.

What do you think? Do you think he’s sexist?

He very obviously does think women are inferior. He thinks that the reason women are underrepresented in powerful positions is not down to sexism. So it must be down to their own lack of ability and men’s superiority. That is literally what he’s telling you he thinks when he spouts this meritocracy nonsense. It’s not open to interpretation.

Whatever you thought ten years ago has no bearing on this. Surely you want a partner whose values are in line with your current self, not your ten-years-ago self.

Sorry I’m not giving you the “Men, eh? What are they like!” spiel you clearly wanted.

Olennas I get that for women greater understanding of feminist issues comes with age, and I’ve felt that in my own case too. I definitely think that’s true of men too. But I think there has to be a baseline willingness to engage with feminism (even if they don’t call it that) before you get seriously involved with a man. The idea that no matter how regressive a man’s views are, a daughter might makes him realise women actually are people, is one that is not helpful in getting women to set expectations for their partners. How often do you hear people imply that women need to have sons to see men as equals?

'Men eh'? That is not what I posted for.

The only course of action you and a few others here would take in my position is to leave him.

Yeah, of course it's rattled me, upset me, frustrated me.

Right, message received. Off to pack and get in touch with estate agents. Thanks all.

Listen if it saves you from a lifetime of trying to reason with a partner who lacks the fundamentals of empathy then you have done yourself a huge favour!

But I think there has to be a baseline willingness to engage with feminism

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen enough in the OP's posts to clearly show that this is the case with the OP's DP. Certainly not enough to warrant the LTB stuff

The idea that no matter how regressive a man’s views are, a daughter might makes him realise women actually are people, is one that is not helpful in getting women to set expectations for their partners

I didn't say this. I said that some men find having a daughter gives them a different - and often unexpected - perspective on what being a female is like.

How often do you hear people imply that women need to have sons to see men as equals?

Of course that's not the same thing, and you know it. Y'know, patriarchy and all that. But mothers of sons do often say that they have learnt a lot more about men as a result, it woudl almost be odd if they didn't (unless they grew up with lots of brothers or other close male relatives around them)

What answer did you want? Really don't know what reponse you wanted or expected. I could have predicted the responses. And if you had posted this on AIBU or relationships you would have the same x 10.

OP unfortunately I feel like this is a fairly normal attitude amongst men, who, let’s face it, don’t have to think about these things in the same way we do.

I think most of the men I love / admire would express a similar view if pressed. In fact my teen nephew tells me “it’s an even playing field”!

People saying LTB are being ridiculous and unhelpful. Unfortunately there’s not an abundant pool of men who “get it” available.

I find the whole thing impossible to navigate because men tend to get defensive and think you’re tarring all men with the same brush no matter how many times you try to explain “it’s the system I hate, not men!”

That’s why I’m thinking of writing a book called “Why I’m no longer talking about sexism to men”! Should be a best seller

I didn't want an 'answer' Assigned. I just wanted to talk to some people who might understand. A few links to help, some shared experiences, that sort of thing. I don't have any one irl to talk about this with.

I am obviously upset about it. Tried being honest, explaining the situation as I am the only one here who actually knows him. But I just feel so much worse now. I'm an enabler, I'm spineless, I have to uproot my whole life and leave, my partner is a twat, a fool, an idiot, I'm letting women down etc.

I feel the complete opposite of empowered/encouraged etc. and am going to go back to bottling it up.

Congratulate yourselves on being much stronger and braver and more principled than me.

Thank you Olenna and Rita. That's helpful...Not in phew, he's normal I can ignore this way, but in a glad someone understands way.

I think you need to talk to him about it - I know you have in one sense but I mean in the sense of how this makes you feel in the context of your relationship.

Try getting him to read this www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias

“Do men ever really get it?”

I’m a man. I think I get it.

White men (of which I am one) do not face discrimination. At all. We’re playing life on easy mode.

I can’t imagine how useless and ineffectual you’d need be, as a white man, to think that the stakes are stacked against you.

What a tosser.

If he doesn’t think that sexism is an issue any more then how on earth does he explain Donald Trump?