White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

Interesting that you’re seeking ways to encourage him to understand, yet presumably he is comfortable in his ignorant (at best) opinions.

Important well before you consider having DC with this person whether he has sexist attitudes.

"White men (of which I am one) do not face discrimination. At all. We’re playing life on easy mode."

@paddyf0dder

White working class boys are the group least likely to go to University. Doesn't sound like easy mode at all.

How do you explain that?

@fmsfms

"White working class boys are the group least likely to go to University. Doesn't sound like easy mode at all.

How do you explain that?"

They don't work as hard at school. Everyone who has been to, or taught at, a mixed school knows that by experience. They don't because they don't need to. Universities used to be so extremely sexist that they let boys in just because they are boys, so they never had to work hard. Now, universities are less sexist, so we are seeing some difference. But that doesn't matter because boys will get hired without a degree for jobs that girls need a degree for.

I was just talking about sex there not race but come to think of it it makes sense white boys wouldn't work as hard as BME boys. BME families often encourage their children to work harder because they know that they need a better education in order to compete with the less educated white people.

"They don't work as hard at school. Everyone who has been to, or taught at, a mixed school knows that by experience. They don't because they don't need to. Universities used to be so extremely sexist that they let boys in just because they are boys, so they never had to work hard. Now, universities are less sexist, so we are seeing some difference"

Wait, what?

Universities in the past were sexist in favour of boys, boys of today know this so don't work as hard because they assume they'll get in thanks to sexism?

And that's why white working class boys are the group least likely to go University?

Does anyone else agree with that tosh?

Everyone knows it’s not cool for working class boys to do well in school. It’s cool for them to play the clown and get sent out of class. So many of them do that. That’s in addition to the disadvantages any working class child might have in terms of having a home life that facilitates good studying practices. Space to study in peace may be limited and parents don’t always have a high level of education themselves.
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It’s a problem rooted in gender roles and masculinity, which the boys themselves police, as well as class. It’s a feminist issue, at least in part.

Note that the borders of “working class” are quite hazy. As they are for any class these days. Difficult to discuss these things in a way that acknowledges that.

Well the reason they don't get in is either because they don't apply or because they don't have the grades to get in to the types of courses they want to do.

If they don't apply, even though they could, that suggest to me that they can get employment via alternative routes.

If they don't get the grades then that is down to some aspect of their education. It could be due to man-hating classism, it could be due to lack of parental engagement, it could be due to lack of aspiration and work ethic, the effects of poverty (unstable home environment, poor diet, caring responsibilities etc). What do you think it is mainly down to?

It’s a problem rooted in gender roles and masculinity, which the boys themselves police, as well as class. It’s a feminist issue, at least in part

And that's one of the most frustrating things, that feminism (a deregulation of oppressive gender roles) would help boys.

"I was just talking about sex there not race "

"Everyone knows it’s not cool for working class boys"

Why are people dropping the "white" from example of how "white privilege" doesn't help "white working class boys" get to University?

Everyone knows it’s not cool for white working class boys to do well in school. The point still stands.

Spoken like a person who is the highest valued in society.

And that's one of the most frustrating things, that feminism (a deregulation of oppressive gender roles) would help boys.

Yep. I get the sense that’s not where fmsfms wants to take this, though.

I think a lot of "woke" men secretly think this, yes. This is why we have "not all men" responses to every goddamn issue.

So no, I don't think they get it, how could they without communication?

All you can do is try to communicate: tell him how hurtful this is, how actually you feel like it's a sexist point of view. I'd be upset too if I were you and not know where to start.

Do men ever get it? Only if they witness it imo. My dh is a good guy generally but he just doesn't see the world as i see it. But last weekend we were at a family party and he walked home with my dd and my sister. He was a bit ahead of the others and had crossed the road. Next thing a car stopped and the male driver started shouting abuse at dd and my sister. They were just walking along, minding their own business and some fucker just couldn't resist having a go at them simply because they were female. He went back but by the time he reached them the car was long gone. He was very upset at what is really a very mild incident, a mere glimpse into the sort of shit that women face all the time.

Does he also think that all diversity means is "less white people"

And yet, the gender pay gap shows that very few ethnicities or class of women out perform men in terms of pay. So not going to university doesn't seem to have a long term impact in terms of pay.

@fsmfms

'Why are people dropping the "white" from example of how "white privilege" doesn't help "white working class boys" get to University?'

I'm not; I gave you my opinion on that in my very next post. BME families tend to value and encourage education because they know full well that their kids will be at a disadvantage and need all the help they can get.

Anyway, white privilege does help white working class boys in many ways, but thankfully it's not so absolute that they can just piss about all through school and then waltz off to Cambridge. For that they'd need a good helping of class privilege too ;)

Anyway, white privilege does help white working class boys in many ways

Which ways please? I have family in a god forsaken Nottinghamshire ex-mining town and I don't buy your statement.

He thinks it's discrimination and you might miss out on excellent male/White candidates.

Sorry OP that made me snort. Did it ever occur to him how many excellent female candidates missed out because employers had attitudes like him?

Also, DH and I are much older than the MN norm. My DH gets it even though he is a retired gent. He always got it at a time when many "decent" men genuinely didn't. So if your younger partner hasn't got it by now, chances are he never will.

And that's one of the most frustrating things, that feminism (a deregulation of oppressive gender roles) would help boys.

This is the problem with the word “privilege” and why I try to avoid it when I can. It makes it sound like you’re meant to have a fabulous life if you have it. It doesn’t mean that. It just means you won’t be actively disadvantaged by, say, your race, your sex, your orientation or your class. The struggles faced by many people in deindustrialised towns are caused by successive governments making decisions that disadvantage working class people, as well as wider global trends. Nothing to do with them being white.

Whoops, should have been this quote:

Which ways please? I have family in a god forsaken Nottinghamshire ex-mining town and I don't buy your statement.

@A4710Rider

What I am hearing is that your family is not, in general, privileged. That you have a hard life, that you are not financially well-off and you do not have the level of respect from society, and the opportunities that you see other people having, and that you deserve as a human being. (Forgive me if I am making assumptions here)

I grew up in a mining village too and I know it seems odd to use a word like "privilege" when you consider the desolation that these areas have suffered in recent decades. They have been absolutely fucked over.

The thing about privilege, though, is it's not absolute. No-one is saying that every white person is better off / more respected than every single BME person. That would be total bollocks - there are Black CEOs, judges, people with loads of power.

But are you honestly telling me that - in general - a white working class boy/young man and a Black, Pakistani, or Roma one would have the same chances of getting a job they are all equally qualified to do?

That they have the same chances of becoming addicted to drugs, or involved in violence?

That landlords would rent to them with equal enthusiasm?

Perhaps where you live these things don't hold. I am not making a judgement of what level of racism and xenophobia there is in your particular neighborhood. But if that's true then your neighborhood should win a prize for how inclusive it is. It would be a really special place.

In the interests of love and understanding, I'm putting myself in the head of a "modern guy" ...............

• hmmmm, history is full of great men inventing things, leading things, no women.

• there must be a reason

• the reason is that men are just better at that kind of thing... oh look here's a bit of evolutionary psychology saying we are hard-wired to take risks, go hunting and its modern day equivalent making money. That must be why.

• yeah yeah I know women had no education in those days but neither did working class men.

• yeah yeah I know women had babies and all that housework stuff but it's not that hard is it