White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

^ I might be wrong about the drugs and violence, I was thinking of US figures not UK. But even if the numbers involved in drugs are the same, the chance of getting arrested for it, which affects all your chances in life, is higher for BME. www.release.org.uk/publications/numbers-black-and-white-ethnic-disparities-policing-and-prosecution-drug-offences

Do you listen to the guilty feminist? Maybe you could try he listens to that? It's a lighthearted way into a lot of topics. And maybe discuss some of the issues that come up/see if his thinking changes or develops?

Biology Yes, actually he does agree that many women have been passed over just for being women. He just presumes this is mostly in the past, or soon will be and doesn't think excluding men is the way to fix it. I do but he is hardly alone in being against positive action.

He is one of the 'we are all equal now crew'. And I really don't think that's an act. He is much more accepting of the scope of rascism. As are most people compared to feminism.

I point shit out all the time, he usually stays quiet or has a counterpoint which always seems reasonable in the moment. He isn't a misogynist, he is ignorant though and not aware of his sexism. He doesn't want to be aware either as he is an incredibly intelligent person but won't turn that focus to feminism. I could chivvy him as suggested but I don't feel confident that would have the desired effect. That's definitely the issue I think.

It's just fucking sad for me.

Sorry OP here you can see the prejudice against men writ large! So maybe your bf has a point?

That said so do you, there is a staggering level of violence (particularly sexual) directed at women.

The problem is of course there is sexism and of course we live in a meritocracy. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. We wouldn’t have split the atom, put a man on the moon, mapped the human genome if our societies didn’t strive and trend towards competency.

Where I’d start with your bf to open up a dialogue is STILL how little credit is given to female achievement. Just look at at female sport relative to men, and how women’s contributions across history are still minimised.

I can still see we have a ways to go to embrace women fully and I’m an MRA!

He's entitled, in that if it doesn't affect him he doesn't listen to those whom it does affect, and arrogant, in that he doesn't believe their experience but trusts his own (self serving and limited) opinion. These are qualities that for me would not be welcome in a partner,because it strongly suggests

A) he will apply the same arrogance and blinkered self belief in his own rightness henceforth; which is irritating in itself but may well lead to

B) him being blind to your experiences eg very possibly about finances (but my bonus is bigger than yours because I earned it) sexual harassment (it's just a bit of harmless shit, let it go): childcare (my job doesn't allow me to be home early and yours does); holidays (I know you say you're tired but honestly I think if you traipsed around the world with me you'll feel so much better)

C. The fact that he cannot be arsed to explore the experiences of others and prefers comfortable ignorance is a deal breaker for me.

In fairness to him I also as a young woman thought the fight was won. I sailed through a co-ed school and university and was oblivious to it. I thought women's studies were a bit cringe and feminists were hard work . It took more life experiences to open my eyes and now I see privilege and inequality everywhere.

The real test is how he reacts when you point things out. My DH struggles but does listen to me and does take things on board. I doubt he'd understand many of the problems that arise for women because it's so far outside his experience. Unlike your dp, he doesn't argue or disregard what I say.

Yeah bucking, your first sentence = ouch. But this attitude hasn't filtered through to anything else with me. He builds me up and is fair in every way. Respects what I do etc.

This is why I have been able to not confront this streak.

He will often completely agree with me - grid girls etc. but is so often low key whataboutthemen and obviously recently not so low key.

Thank you for the understanding and suggestions.

@chaoticgood "Anyway, white privilege does help white working class boys in many ways, but thankfully it's not so absolute that they can just piss about all through school and then waltz off to Cambridge"

Who here is talking about Oxbridge level Universities? By referencing the elite you are doing the actual problem of working class white underperformance in education a profound disservice.

I'm really starting to think your views are fairly toxic

@boodebeep

Is the problem that he believes in equal opportunity (and maybe that we already have achieved equality of opportunity) whereas you would prefer him to believe in equity of outcome?

But are you honestly telling me that - in general - a white working class boy/young man and a Black, Pakistani, or Roma one would have the same chances of getting a job they are all equally qualified to do?

I would say a white working class girl /young man probably has a better chance than any of them. A white middle class girl / young women definitely has. At entry level jobs I think there is a bias towards women.

For renting a flat I would expect the white girl/young woman of either class (as long as she is not a single parent in which case she drops down) to be the preferred tenant.

If your boyfriend is into gaming at all, you could try him on this:
whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Re. women vs. men on risk taking - it turns out a lot of the research was done with surveys where the behaviours asked about were highly gendered - in the social sciences "sex stereotype" meaning of gendered - e.g. "how likely would you be to ride a motorbike without a helmet?" Psychologist Michelle Ryan tried this with a different questionnaire which balanced those sorts of masculine-gendered questions with feminine gendered ones, e.g "how likely would you be to ride a horse without a helmet?", and found that the sex discrepancy disappeared.

Here's a rather nice press release on one of her research papers (co-authored, among other people, by Cordelia Fine):
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171005102626.htm

and here's a TedX talk she gave a few years back:
tedxexeter.com/category/michelle-ryan/

Sorry I meant to say I would say a white working class girl /young woman probably has a better chance than any of them. A white middle class girl / young women definitely has. At entry level jobs I think there is a bias towards women.

@Oldmanoftheweb3, on the phone on a support call last week, I stated four times that a HDMI to VGA adaptor can't just have two gender changers added to turn it into a VGA to HDMI converter, that there is more involved electronically and you need a whole new device. Four times I was ignored, not even acknowledged, as the man at the far end carried on hunting through his component boxes to find gender changers. Men in my industry are not treated like this: I know this because I watch how they are treated.

Men do get it easier: from being able to walk to the train station without being shouted at "hey sexy, I want to fuck you in the arse" (on my way home a couple of months ago), to being taken more seriously at work and at the mechanics, to not being told to your face by your male neighbours that "women can't do flatpack" when assembling garden furniture, right up to being able to park cockeyed and not have it blamed on your sex. You get it easier, you just don't see it.

OP: dump him. You deserve better.

@fmsfms

I'm really starting to think your views are fairly toxic

What views are those then?

That boys piss about at school compared to girls? Obviously they do - did you go to an all girls school, or have you forgotten what it was like? because I find it unbelievable that you have not noticed this.

That historically boys have been favoured by universities? I mean Christ, many Unis didn't even let girls in at first.

That racism exists? That sexism exists?

The only way I can understand what you're saying is that you think I am denying that working class kids are at a disadvantage compared to middle class. Of course they are. Both sexes. It's just that that's not the whole story. People can have advantages in some ways and disadvantages in others. If you think that view is toxic, well, shoot me.

@LassWiADelicateAir - yes girls and women are preferred for some jobs, such as retail and call centres, which demand emotional labour and pay peanuts. They are likely to have zero hours contracts, terrible working conditions (which are overlooked because they are indoors and not physically dangerous - but the affects on mental health of working in a call centre are vile) and pay minimum wage or below (e.g. home caring jobs where you are driving most of the day and are only paid for contact time, can be half or a quarter of minimum wage). The fact that this sector is growing makes it seem like women have it better because they can get these jobs more easily. But the right to work in call centre hell and have your toilet breaks monitored is not a right worth fighting for, it's part of something that we all need to fight against.

Race, class and sex discrimination all intersect and the only way we can ever deal with it is to stop arguing about who is more oppressed or who has it better, and get on the bloody picket lines. The only people who benefit from the Oppression Olympics are the oppressors themselves.

@haXXor - tell me about it.

Life as a female techie is one long fight against that shit. Guys think they get it and they talk about "women in tech" as though it is all about hiring policies and flexible hours, but the hardest thing is the constant, boring, tiring, wearing, irritating, deflating business of having to claw your way up to where they can see you, every day and all the time

When they wave a red flag like that right in your face, and even go so far as to rub your nose in it, you need to stop pretending that he sees you as an autonomous human being with the same rights as he enjoys.
He does not.
He told you exactly who he is when he said there was no other explanation. Believe him.

@chaoticgood terrible working conditions (which are overlooked because they are indoors and not physically dangerous - but the affects on mental health of working in a call centre are vile)

The physical effects of working in a open plan, hotdesk environment (e.g. call centre, Royal Mail MDEC) can be vile too. The ergonomics of working at a different desk each day are nightmarish because you don't have enough time to set the chair and computer peripherals up the way you need them when you relieve the previous shift and custom peripherals (e.g. vertical mice) have to be taken in and plugged in every time, assuming that you don't get fired from your agency rolling temp job just for asking for them. You can't always pick a seat where the light works best for you, leading to eye strain, headaches, and migraines (if you already suffer with them, the conditions trigger more of them). And, if you are on rotating shifts, it fucks your circadian rhythms up something rotten. I'd honestly rather be on constant nights than on rotating triple.

Source: I worked at RM MDEC.

Boopdebeep I had a similar experience with my closest male friend before Christmas. He is a good person but as a straight white male had no concept of priviliege and the insidious, toxic nature of misogny.

We've talked and talked ever since. He was utterly stunned at first at things I was telling him about what life is like as a female. He is a reader so I pointed him at some resources and, in between him being truly shocked at what he's discovering and being angry at himself for not seeing this before, he is really getting it now - as much as a man can, in his own words.

He's also sharing what he's learning with other men in his life as and when it's appropriate.

@haXXor thank you for pointing that out, I did not consider it but of course it is true

yes girls and women are preferred for some jobs, such as retail and call centres, which demand emotional labour and pay peanuts

I wasn't talking about those sorts of jobs. I have no experience of that type of work or worker. I was referring to entry level within professional sectors.

How am I enabling him?

I swore off men 20 yrs ago. I highly recommend it. Women don't need a man but we're taught we do. I can't tell you how much I learned about myself and life in general by doing it without a man attached to my leg like a ball and chain.

This thread makes me know I made the right choice.

slightly that link was fascinating, thanks for sharing.

boop I have work colleagues that think like this. It appears to be a combination of total lack of empathy and envy. I think some men are especially frustrated at the moment because there is so much in the media/in workplaces about lack of equality for women. They don't want to think about it - I'm not sure if they feel ashamed that they might have been sexist or excluded and resentful.

I think if it was my boyfriend we would have to have a serious conversation about how upsetting it is that he is dismissing the evidence and specifically your knowledge of the issues.

Maybe you could suggest he does this?
www.indy100.com/article/woman-conducts-experiment-to-show-just-how-awful-sexual-harassment-is-online-internet-husband-chat-7916391

Bollocks.

Interesting how many men resent it when people do something to help themselves or others, instead of following that example.

I grew up in a working class family. Most of the men expected to take the same job as their father. Few of the fathers encouraged their sons to look further afield.
Men need to change their mindset, instead we have a male culture that washes its hands of its children once they reach 18.
That does not enable children to enter further education.

If men really want their sons to do well, then you need to lead by example and encourage them.