White Men are the Most Discriminated Against Demographic

[BoodeBeep]

My boyfriend has just said this to me. His reasons were women and ethnic minorities get schemes/help/AWS etc. I asked why exactly he thinks they have them, who they were trying to equal women up to etc. He said we should have a meritocracy and I agreed but explained we haven't ever ever had that and not all men are there on merit. I asked if he thought the reason there wasn't 50/50 represention was because women just weren't up to it and he said of course not but what other explanation is there?

I left it because there is just no getting through the complete arrogant certainty that he is right despite having done zero reading around the subject, having zero experience of being a woman/ethnic minority and seeing and hearing the experiences me and many other women have.

It's so frustrating. He's generally great but blind on this issue and obviously unwilling to think about it in any depth beyond how it may affect him should he fall victim to the discrimination of an all women shortlist.

Do men ever really get it?

OP only on MN do women find these mythical amazing male species who completely understand the issues women face and don't have any ignorance to their male privilege.

I wouldn't LTB just yet over it if you're happy and can deal with being a little exasperated by him till he does think a little more carefully.

Our partners should be the ones we can say mindless crap to and they save us from embarrassment by gently guiding us to sanity

Well, no, he knows there are a lot of overtly sexist men out there, he just doesn't get the non blatant stuff. Like I said, I didn't myself until mid twenties.

He thinks the majority are sorted and equal and the laws deal with the rest.

WTAF?!

a little exasperated by him

Our partners should be the ones we can say mindless crap to and they save us from embarrassment by gently guiding us to sanity

Is this something from the latest episode of The Handmaid's Tale?!

Fucking listen to yourself!

The insults and assumptions about him I've heard here have naturally made me defensive. And that has made me look at all his good points. Not to 'convince myself' because what's the point? But to see that there isn't sexism in his actions or intentions. He is just optimistically ignorant about sexism in the UK (readily sees it in other countries). He isn't a twat, fool etc.

I will talk to him.

In the end posting has helped.

Thanks

Good God. Have you actually read the posts? Have you read your own posts?

What was the point of you posting in the first place?

@BIWI men are stupid. We know that. Some of us still like them occasionally

I'll fight the war but I will roll my eyes at other times if it suits me to do so - like a partner who hasn't got it yet but otherwise is good

It doesn't mean we agree. Just we afford them a little time to learn before writing them off

Yeah, I have actually. I can see myself repeating that he isn't sexist and when i cross reference this with his actions, i am right. He's equal in the home, doesn't approve of porn, doesn't use sexist language or talk derogatory about women, builds me up. We are equal.

He is ignorant about this and it frustrates me greatly because I think so deeply and personally about it.

I explained why I was posting earlier - read back. A lot of people on here have jumped to erroneous conclusions and insults and it has given me perspective.

I am sorry I am not leaving the person I love on your say so. Appreciate the time you have given my thread.

No @changemymindabouttrump that's not true at all, and it's hugely patronising to men as well.

@BoodeBeep. I don't want you to leave him. I do, though, want you to see the reality of what he's like. After all, you've written it all yourself!

However. If you want to continue believing he's not at all sexist, then over to you. There's none so deaf as those who won't listen. In this case to your own words!

Appreciate the support change but the 'Men are stupid is a hard no from me. They really aren't. My dp certainly isn't. If he won't listen to me or take me seriously in future then that's an issue but I'm not giving up on 4 years over a dispute about AWS that escalated.

Lol well sent over these mythical men that have it all sorted. I could do with one. I haven't met one so I'm happier alone but I don't think OP must leave her DP based on some stupidity she posts on MN @BIWI

Isn't being sexist thinking women are lesser than you? He doesn't.

He doesn't appreciate the rampant sexism still existing...He believes laws put a stop to it and in a generation or two things will even up given most/best graduates are women. He thinks positive action is unnecessary and discrimination and devalues women. That does have some merit in that it masks other issues but it doesn't tally with my opinion.

And to be fair it isn't true he sees none of it. Darts girls, porn, heels etc he sees.

It's because he thinks women are equal he doesn't get why they should need help to get on in work.

And I don't think it's 'telling' or a crime to give deep thought to risking giving assets to someone who hasn't helped earned them. We could marry, I cheat and he risks losing stuff depending on settlement etc. The benefits don't exist in our situation to make that risk worth it.

Yeah, this has helped. Thank you.

Some of this advice should go on that thread about what mumsnetters say on threads but would never do in their on lives.

He does have sexism from socialisation though. But so do I and the majority of people. Stuff like mild surprise it was an all women interview panel in his industry or instinctively picking girly cards for girls birthdays. He gets that when pointed out actually.

Still unsure how I facilitate him.

To answer your question, he's got a blind spot on this. I think he needs to understand that yes, a meritocracy would be ideal, but many factors mean that our merits are overshadowed by our 'detractors' (i.e. that we'll need to take time off for children, that a lot of the caring responsibilities unfairly fall on us so we may not be able to work the hours men can). These things put us at a disadvantage in many industries.

Add to that the fact we have some industries that have grown around male connections and it becomes even harder for us to break in.

It seems peculiarly naive to think that because there are laws in place this will stop all discrimination in a generation or two. Plenty of other laws exist that haven't removed issues by making things illegal. It's also a bit disappointing to discount a generation or two of women who have missed the boat and will still face discrimination until men manage to change.

I don't think I've got any actual advice but it must be quite tiresome to have to point out casual sexism to him repeatedly.

@boodebeep (not sure if you answered this already)

Is the problem that he believes in equal opportunity (and maybe that we already have achieved equality of opportunity) whereas you would prefer him to believe in equity of outcome?

Yes, I know assassinated as he does see the some remaining and he does see that clearly racism/disablism/homophobia is all around. Maybe it's defensiveness - men as a class thing. Privilege as a term is so misunderstood. Interpreted as something that is given, not born with.

I don't constantly point out casual sexism, because we would not talk of anything else! But when I do he often gets it but often whataboutthemens. E.g. I moan about feeling pressure to wear make up every day, he says men have to make the effort too. I do expand.

But I didn't really see all the casual sexism on my own. It was reading, here, student groups, blogs etc. And I sought it out as it affects me directly.

As I said, I really often wish I was back in happy blinkered equality land. Where he seems to live part time.

He thinks we have equality of opportunity, I do not.

@boodebeep "But I didn't really see all the casual sexism on my own. It was reading, here, student groups, blogs etc. And I sought it out as it affects me directly."

Here's the problem - if you immerse yourself in a topic as you admit to, then you are always going to be more aware of that topic than people that don't pay attention to it, or only have a laymans interest/awareness

Your immersion is amplifying the scale of the issue/problem in your mind. It's unfair and unreasonable to expect him to share your opinions.

If you were a Vegan and he wasn't, would you constantly lecture him to give up meat or complain when he can't appreciate the harm/damage/cruelty of the meat industry?

OP When I went to a support group for abused women, counselors were never supposed to shame women for not leaving their abusers soon enough, and were supposed to remain supportive and respectful even if a woman decided to return to an abuser.

No one should be demeaning you for staying with your boyfriend or for not "seeing the light", no matter what reason they give for it.

He doesn't even sound close to a being an abuser. But even if he was, you have a right to be with him, without being talked down to for it or even to have other people refer to him as an "idiot" in your presence. That's also disrespectful to YOU.

(Although I do get harsher towards people who know someone's awful and still decide to procreate with them.)

I am actually vegetarian and he isn't. We don't talk about it.

I do know what you mean. I don't think that is 'the problem' but it gives rise to this being an issue.

It's so very frustrating how men can use feminism to practice their debating/devil's advocate skills but this is real life to us. To be fair he doesn't goad or give argue for the sake of it but it is more personally insulting to be not listened to with this than vegetarianism.

And, to be fair, it usually me who chooses to drop it as I start to get emotional and I don't want to lose credibility. I don't think he would use my emotion to point score but soooo many men do I just don't take the risk. Which is shit.

Thank you end.

I have been with an abuser and though I consider myself fine now I do think I shy away from holding my own for long out of habit/getting emotional. Current dp doesn't take advantage of that btw, he is remarkably straightforward.

These things stay with us.

If you posted the thread title on Reddit, where it's male-dominated, they would overwhelmingly agree with you.

There is a MASSIVE amount of resentment at women. Men's rights movements are now a big thing again. It's incredible.

Yes, Ardant. I had my lecturer at university use the exact same words. I think someone prominent said it once and it has been parroted and a controversial and 'inciteful' truth ever since.

Maybe whats really meant is stright/able-bodied/middle class/white men are the only ones not getting assistance (which isnt true either; I think these helping hands are not that prolific) which just makes me shout:

YES, BECAUSE THEY DON'T FUCKING NEED THEM!!!!!