Why is misgendering a big deal?

[FortunateCookie]

Hope someone can help because I’m really trying to understand why not affirming someone’s identity is that big of a deal.
I understand that it’s polite to go along with whatever someone’s chosen gender identity is, but I can’t believe that it’s actually a big problem if you don’t?
Surely if your friends and family accept your identity, it doesn’t matter if someone at work doesn’t?
Would it really make someone suicidal?
Do any of the trans organisations say why it is so important?
I just don’t get it.

FortunateCookie
Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation.

Exactly.

Both trans women and cis women come under the umbrella term of "women"

No. Trans identified males are a subset of male people, not female ones.

Its funny isn't it how radical feminists are gender critical because gender is a social construct, however if someone wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun (which is also a social construct) thats a 'huge lie' and shouldn't be changed?

Feminists have largely had to self-define as "gender critical" because much of the rhetoric being promoted under the guise of "trans rights" is reinforcing gender stereotypes which many feminists find offensive. Therefore the term "gender critical" is being used to demarcate that this is a gender driven discussion - and the constant and incorrect conflagration of the terms "gender" and "sex".

Many feminists, me included, have no issue with being referred to by the pronoun that denotes our sex as women; adult human females.

It just illustrates what a sad state of affairs we are in. Whether strangers or even work colleagues know if you are a man or a woman should not matter because they should treat you the same either way. But sadly we all know that this is not the world we live in.

Perhaps we should try and fix THAT first!

Its funny isn't it how radical feminists are gender critical because gender is a social construct, however if someone wants to be referred to by a particular pronoun (which is also a social construct) thats a 'huge lie' and shouldn't be changed?

Very very good point. They're all for gender being bollocks until certain parts of gender work out for them!

Rosesandflowers you really need to stop using the word 'transphobes'.
Many of your posts come across as someone who is trying to think about stuff and then you use a term that pathologises people who hold different views to you. Not a helpful way to move forward in understanding imo.

I don't think anyone on this thread believes there's no transphobia here.

I haven't called anyone a transphobe directly. I've mentioned transphobic ideals and called them transphobic. I've also referred to transphobes when it's relevant to my point. Not out of place in this discussion - it's at the centre of it.

Also, I've never met a TERF who's not transphobic. Its kind of in the name. And something tells me that a lot of people here are TERFs.

I can avoid the word if it's becoming counterproductive because there is no point on holding onto a piece of language if it works against a good goal

Women with a trans history? You mean men What a disingenuous expression, Gibbs.

If someone's identity is so insubstantial that they demand other people pretend
that they are the opposite sex or they'll kick off/harm themself they have problems far, far beyond misgendering.

It seems that the more a trans person knows they're not the sex they claim to be the more furious they become if others don't toe the pronoun line. And going along with someone's delusions is babying them, I feel.

It's like claiming you're Jesus or Napoleon. People may well say "yes, dear", but that doesn't mean they think your delusions are real. If you want to be considered an adult it's best to behave like one.

Of course in everyday life we seldom use sexed pronouns in front of the person involved. I and all the friends/relatives of the TIMs I know use he and his when talking about them. No one sees them as women. I use their names in their presence.

Panda, It is not compassion to collude in a delusion. We don't go along with sufferers of anorexia when they insist they are fat despite being malnourished, do we?? I am sorry for everyone with mental health problems but colliding in a lie they want to create is not helping them! Or anyone else!

roseandflowers, to clarify:

Gender is a social construct, gender identity is a made up belief system which is unscientific bollocks, sex is biological reality.

I'm not validating my principles.

You do sound silly.

They're all for gender being bollocks until certain parts of gender work out for them!

You mean biological sex. I am all for women's protected characteristics resulting from their biological sex.

Cis is not just a descriptor - it is limiting!! It means that people cannot veer out of 'normal' gender identity without thinking they should be trans! It is also offensive that women should identify with the gender roles that have been forced on us...I certainly don't identify with being oppressed, thank you very much!

And cis is used to determine something other than trans when we don't NEED this word...we are simply WOMEN! TIMs are MEN! Women are not other. Women don't need to be others from womanhood.

Stop contributing to women's oppression by using language that others us. As a woman, it is shameful of you!

Othered from womanhood!

Example:

We're going to fire you because you don't wear a dress and we believe women should wear dresses = gender construct.

We're going to fire you because you are pregnant = sex based discrimination.

One is subjective, the other is fact.

Something tells you?

So women can say, and spend a lot of time explaining why they are not transphobic and not cis and you dismiss their thoughts, beliefs, wishes because that little something spoke more loudly?

You blithely insult posters further with your TERF comments and, when posters point out the insult, you will still insist that your little voice knows best.

All the while repeating that telling people they are something they don't want to be called is literally harmful!

Can you see it yet, Roses? Can you see your own hipocracy?

Will you try entering an honest debate yet?

Rosesandflowers

You haven't grasped the difference between sex and gender at all.

Sex is real.
References to it are meaningful and valid.
Gender is just....Nothing. no definition, no characteristics, no meaning. It uses words that relate to sex whilst claiming sex doesn't matter. It's a circular meaningless mess.
References to gender that masquerade under words that relate to sex are not valid.

"This person has XY chromosomes". HIS SEX is male. = Valid.

"This person has XY chromosomes. HER 'gender' is female = false.

Pronouns refer to the objective charactistic sex. Not the meaningless concept gender.

Last thought:

I bought some men's jeans last week. Does that make me a man? Of course not. I am a woman who wanted normal non-skinny jeans with decent pockets in them; and the "ladies wear" versions available simply don't give me what I want.

Can a man wear a dress? Of course! Does putting on a dress make him a woman? No - in the same way that me putting on a mask and gloves doesn't make me a brain surgeon.

@Hideandgo How you see yourself, whoever you are, is massively tied up in how other people see you. And who other people accept you to be.

Not for me it isn't. I don't give a shiny shit how others see me. That's common in my generation, we see ourselves as teeny, tiny cogs in an enormous wheel. Younger people are so self-focused all they see is themselves.

Please can we get a pinned post on the board that explains in simple terms the difference between gender and sex? Because it's clear that lots of posters here don't get it, which rather renders the whole debate obsolete

I'm not validating my principles.

You do sound silly.

You have the principle that to call a trans woman a woman would be a lie, yes?

Instead of just thinking this, you've stated that you'd refuse to refer to someone their preferred pronouns - based on this principle.

So in a way, you are kind of validating it. You're not just thinking it or discussing it with like minded people. You said you wouldn't change this based on a person's anxiety. (Pretty shitty, IMO.)

My question to you was if you would be prepared to change this principle based on the severity of the persons issues. I'd like an answer. It would be very telling.

Cis is not just a descriptor - it is limiting!! It means that people cannot veer out of 'normal' gender identity without thinking they should be trans!

What?
Cis just means you identify as man and have a penis, or identify as a woman and have a vagina.

Why would that make anyone feel compelled to be trans? It's not really based on your whims anyway, is it.

You blithely insult posters further with your TERF comments and, when posters point out the insult, you will still insist that your little voice knows best.

All the while repeating that telling people they are something they don't want to be called is literally harmful!

When I said "something told me" I meant it as a joke. Perhaps it was a bad one, but the irony was that I've interacted with about three people with "terf" in their username.

As for the rest of it, I don't really understand. Are you saying I'm hypocritical because I'm saying that misgendering someone can be harmful and that "cis" isn't offensive?

I think people the best definition of transphobic might be the one used by the Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/homophobic-biphobic-and-transphobic-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

Women tend not to identify as women - we just ARE women!👍

can't you see that you are forcing your selfish and harmful mindset over the experiences and thoughts of other women?

That's really some projection.

Don't you understand that I have no gender identity, I don't "identify" as a woman, I just am one? It is a true fact about me. It tells you nothing about my identity or about my personality. So, I am not cis. I am also not trans.

"the irony was that I've interacted with about three people with "terf" in their username"

You aren't the only person to see irony in that